Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › "Libertarian Courts?"
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2]  Send TopicPrint
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) "Libertarian Courts?" (Read 85 times)
SnarkySack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 3025
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: "Libertarian Courts?"
Reply #10 - May 16th, 2018 at 9:17am
Print Post  
Billie wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 9:07am:
Blame "progressives" for that, to the extent that it is true.


Meaning the progressive court that decided Marbury v. Madison? 

Quote:
The S.Ct. just decided a case where they mentioned the 10th Amendment and the "enumerated powers" of Congress, holding that Congress could not exceed it's enumerated powers.

Does that sound like they're all in it together? No. It sounds like there is a glimmer of hope for limited government!


You mean the sports betting case?  You're right.  But it is only a glimmer.

Question I'll put to the whole board, but I especially want your answer to:

If congress passed a law forbidding states from banning marijuana possession or regulating or taxing it, would Americans be more free or less free?


  

I used to be burnsred . . .
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Billie
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 29359
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: "Libertarian Courts?"
Reply #11 - May 16th, 2018 at 9:49am
Print Post  
SnarkySack wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 9:17am:
Meaning the progressive court that decided Marbury v. Madison? 


You mean the sports betting case?  You're right.  But it is only a glimmer.


Article III Section 2 says in part-

"The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under the Constitution, the Laws of the United States..."

That gives the Courts jurisdiction over Laws passed by Congress under the Constitution. It's certainly a reasonable reading in my estimation.

Ultimately I agree with John Jay that questions regarding the meaning of the Constitution must be referred back to the People, but where the meaning of the Constitution is clear and unambiguous, the Courts should be telling Congress they can't exceed or ignore the Constitution and declaring laws passed outside of the grants of power unconstitutional.


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Billie
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 29359
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: "Libertarian Courts?"
Reply #12 - May 16th, 2018 at 9:57am
Print Post  
SnarkySack wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 9:17am:
Question I'll put to the whole board, but I especially want your answer to:

If congress passed a law forbidding states from banning marijuana possession or regulating or taxing it, would Americans be more free or less free?


Congress doesn't have any such power.

Police powers are left with the states, but if Congress did have that power, we would be less free.

As to the instant question, people would be more free to use marijuana if states were prohibited from banning it.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SnarkySack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 3025
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: "Libertarian Courts?"
Reply #13 - May 16th, 2018 at 10:43am
Print Post  
Billie wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 9:57am:
Congress doesn't have any such power.

Police powers are left with the states, but if Congress did have that power, we would be less free.

As to the instant question, people would be more free to use marijuana if states were prohibited from banning it.


Good.  I expected way more obfuscation than that.

So - to state the obvious - the concept of "states rights" is often at odds with individual rights.

  

I used to be burnsred . . .
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Billie
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 29359
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: "Libertarian Courts?"
Reply #14 - May 16th, 2018 at 2:52pm
Print Post  
SnarkySack wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 10:43am:
Good.  I expected way more obfuscation than that.

So - to state the obvious - the concept of "states rights" is often at odds with individual rights.

States have granted powers and assigned duties, not rights.

Check you state Constitution to see if your state government has been granted any power to stop you from eating double cheeseburgers or smoking pot. Maybe it has, but your state Constitution almost certainly recognizes your Right to general Liberty.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SnarkySack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 3025
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: "Libertarian Courts?"
Reply #15 - May 16th, 2018 at 3:02pm
Print Post  
Billie wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 2:52pm:
States have granted powers and assigned duties, not rights.

Check you state Constitution to see if your state government has been granted any power to stop you from eating double cheeseburgers or smoking pot. Maybe it has, but your state Constitution almost certainly recognizes your Right to general Liberty.


You don't subscribe to the idea that the constitution grants to states all powers it does not assign to the national government?

As I hope you are, I am mystified as to where states, cities, counties derive their power to forbid vices.  You seem to have a handle on where they are granted power to tax economic activities but you've yet to explain that.


  

I used to be burnsred . . .
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Billie
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 29359
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: "Libertarian Courts?"
Reply #16 - May 16th, 2018 at 3:14pm
Print Post  
SnarkySack wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 3:02pm:
You don't subscribe to the idea that the constitution grants to states all powers it does not assign to the national government?


The Constitution leaves all of the powers with the states that were not removed from the states by the Constitution. All powers not granted to the national government are "reserved" to the people and the states.

For instance, prior to joining the union, each independent state had the power to declare war and to raise armies to fight wars. That power was lost when Congress was given the exclusive power to declare war.

The national government is not given any power to "grant rights" to any state or person. The very idea that such a power might exist shows a misunderstanding of the true meaning of Rights.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Billie
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 29359
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: "Libertarian Courts?"
Reply #17 - May 16th, 2018 at 3:30pm
Print Post  
SnarkySack wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 3:02pm:
As I hope you are, I am mystified as to where states, cities, counties derive their power to forbid vices.  You seem to have a handle on where they are granted power to tax economic activities but you've yet to explain that.



The power to make laws governing people's behavior existed in the colonies under English law. Nobody ever bothered to remove them. They are generally referred to as "police powers" because their most important intention and function is to govern and reduce criminal behavior like theft and assault and murder. They are what is called retained or reserved powers. Powers that existed prior to the Constitution that were not altered or removed.

If it seemed reasonable to the government of your town to control criminal behavior like spitting tobacco juice all over the sidewalks, they did.

Many Blue Laws were enacted because the majority of people in towns or states thought that it was criminal (in the eyes of God anyway) to engage in trade on Sundays. Religions are conservative and "progressive" at their core. They seek to help create the world that God wants and to make people better so they will avoid sin.

The same conservative "progressive" impulse led to prohibition and all sorts of laws governing the use and sale of alcohol outside of prohibition. The same with the vices of gambling and prostitution.

In most cases, these laws were enacted because the majority of people in the community wanted them enacted and made their voices heard.

People who like democracy should take note that it sometimes has results you might not like individually. So does tyranny of course, and tyrannical governments have often been even more Puritanical than democratic ones.

Libertarians are, as you know, having some success in having "vice" laws repealed.

"Progressives" in the meantime are trying to make free speech an illegal vice.

Edit: BTW, the granted power of taxation includes the power to tax anything, not just economic activity. That's why abandoning the limits on the taxing power has had such bad effects.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SnarkySack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 3025
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: "Libertarian Courts?"
Reply #18 - May 16th, 2018 at 3:54pm
Print Post  
Billie wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 3:30pm:
Edit: BTW, the granted power of taxation includes the power to tax anything, not just economic activity. That's why abandoning the limits on the taxing power has had such bad effects.


Interesting.  Not saying you're wrong because I haven't thought it through.  What does government tax that isn't an economic activity?

  

I used to be burnsred . . .
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Billie
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 29359
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: "Libertarian Courts?"
Reply #19 - May 16th, 2018 at 6:42pm
Print Post  
SnarkySack wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 3:54pm:
Interesting.  Not saying you're wrong because I haven't thought it through.  What does government tax that isn't an economic activity?

Property, merely because of it's ownership.

Here's a timely dissertation related to what we've been talking about-

https://www.cato.org/publications/catos-letter/role-judiciary


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › "Libertarian Courts?"
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy