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Snarky Sack
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Should Libertarians Care if the FBI Spied on Trump Campaign?
May 22nd, 2018 at 10:51am
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Hell yes!

We should be concerned when any citizen is targeted by law-enforcement for political purposes.  That kind of banana republic tactic does great harm to all of us, not just people who like Trump.  This is no better than the FBI's attempt to spy on and discredit Martin Luther King.

What makes it particularly galling is the fact that it was driven by Trump's popularity and success.  If Trump had been the joke candidate as the media predicted he would be, if he had gotten less than five percent of the primary votes but hung on anyway, the FBI would have had no interest in him.  There's no record that they targeted "Bubbles" Rubio for any kind of clandestine operations. 

The Deep States hatred for Trump is only the personification of their hatred for voters.  People like Comey and Rosenstein hold the ordinary taxpayers who fund their lavish powers in little regard.  They only hold our elected representative in a little more esteem, but only in that Deep States will at least try to claim they are respecting their oversight authority. 

Hopefully no one still believes that the supposed "separation of powers," the constitution calls for protects anyone's rights.  It is entirely predictable what will happen next.  The IG will give Rosenstein a report.  Rosenstein will give congress a highly redacted copy of it and tell them that the report completely exonerates all concerned except Trump but that the details are classified or are part of an ongoing investigation so they can't be shared.



  

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SkyChief
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Re: Should Libertarians Care if the FBI Spied on Trump Campaign?
Reply #1 - May 22nd, 2018 at 11:32am
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Snarky Sack wrote on May 22nd, 2018 at 10:51am:
Hell yes!

The IG will give Rosenstein a report.  Rosenstein will give congress a highly redacted copy of it and tell them that the report completely exonerates all concerned except Trump but that the details are classified or are part of an ongoing investigation so they can't be shared.

Highly cynical, but this is probably pretty close to what we can expect.

I agree that libertarians should be concerned when the government spies on iis own citizens, btw.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Should Libertarians Care if the FBI Spied on Trump Campaign?
Reply #2 - May 22nd, 2018 at 12:46pm
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SkyChief wrote on May 22nd, 2018 at 11:32am:
Highly cynical, but this is probably pretty close to what we can expect.

I agree that libertarians should be concerned when the government spies on iis own citizens, btw.


The question keeps coming up, what is Trump so worried about? Is he guilt free?

As I've said many times already, the spin is all that's going to be important when Mueller comes down with his evidence. The spin right now is roughly 50/50 because Americans are more interested in the politics than being objective. This is true on both sides of course.

Mueller's findings will be desperately spun by both sides. The only question will be whether or not it will have the weight to take down Trump. Trump is very afraid it will.

I would guess that there's an October surprise coming from Mueller but it could come a little earlier. Trump's objective is to stop that from happening too close to October. He might see that as being June at the latest?

As to Mueller, his team, and the FBI? They all sincerely believe that Trump has to be stopped. If we think of the reality of what Trump has done to your country, it just becomes obvious.

I'm predicting they will stop him. But I don't know what the eventual choice of method will be. Nothing will be off the table, including the 'Kennedy' solution. And the entire US congress will breathe a sigh of relief! Especially the R's!

(which incidentally, is a topic for a new thread by now)
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Should Libertarians Care if the FBI Spied on Trump Campaign?
Reply #3 - May 22nd, 2018 at 3:02pm
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As to Mueller, his team, and the FBI? They all sincerely believe that Trump has to be stopped. If we think of the reality of what Trump has done to your country, it just becomes obvious.

The FBI is in dire straights right now.  Less than half of all Americans trust the FBI.  This one certainly does not.

Comey seriously tarnished the FBI's image when he exonerated Hillary for her illegal obstruction activites.  (IMO)

The FBI has a very long way to go to regain the trust of the American people.  This is a thorn in Mueller's side.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Should Libertarians Care if the FBI Spied on Trump Campaign?
Reply #4 - May 22nd, 2018 at 7:39pm
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SkyChief wrote on May 22nd, 2018 at 3:02pm:
The FBI is in dire straights right now.  Less than half of all Americans trust the FBI.  This one certainly does not.

Comey seriously tarnished the FBI's image when he exonerated Hillary for her illegal obstruction activites.  (IMO)

The FBI has a very long way to go to regain the trust of the American people.  This is a thorn in Mueller's side.


The trouble with your theory on the condemnation of Comey is that he made enemies on both sides. That would be a factor that a libertarian should be commending. Comey worked against corrupt government.

That's my opinion.

What is also true is that the FBI is going to stand beside Comey right to the end. Trump made one fukking big mistake taking on Comey!

Trump would be out of the woods by now if it wasn't for that. The FBI is going to ensure that Trump is taken down. fukkin boo hoo! What libertarian wouldn't be hoping to see that?

You and justin Raimondo?
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Should Libertarians Care if the FBI Spied on Trump Campaign?
Reply #5 - May 23rd, 2018 at 12:04am
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I think it's better to object to the laws that declare Trump did anything wrong. If he actually committed aggression, on the other hand, he should be punished regardless of who found the information, or how it was found, or why it was looked for.

In a purely libertarian world, a private security company or even a private individual would easily do what the FBI is doing, and it wouldn't be aggression.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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Jeff
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Re: Should Libertarians Care if the FBI Spied on Trump Campaign?
Reply #6 - May 23rd, 2018 at 3:19pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on May 22nd, 2018 at 10:51am:
Hell yes!

We should be concerned when any citizen is targeted by law-enforcement for political purposes.  That kind of banana republic tactic does great harm to all of us, not just people who like Trump.  This is no better than the FBI's attempt to spy on and discredit Martin Luther King.

What makes it particularly galling is the fact that it was driven by Trump's popularity and success.  If Trump had been the joke candidate as the media predicted he would be, if he had gotten less than five percent of the primary votes but hung on anyway, the FBI would have had no interest in him.  There's no record that they targeted "Bubbles" Rubio for any kind of clandestine operations. 

The Deep States hatred for Trump is only the personification of their hatred for voters.  People like Comey and Rosenstein hold the ordinary taxpayers who fund their lavish powers in little regard.  They only hold our elected representative in a little more esteem, but only in that Deep States will at least try to claim they are respecting their oversight authority. 

Hopefully no one still believes that the supposed "separation of powers," the constitution calls for protects anyone's rights.  It is entirely predictable what will happen next.  The IG will give Rosenstein a report.  Rosenstein will give congress a highly redacted copy of it and tell them that the report completely exonerates all concerned except Trump but that the details are classified or are part of an ongoing investigation so they can't be shared.



Time will tell. Let's wait and see if the report gets out and what's in it.


  
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Jeff
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Re: Should Libertarians Care if the FBI Spied on Trump Campaign?
Reply #7 - May 23rd, 2018 at 3:23pm
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The Opposition wrote on May 23rd, 2018 at 12:04am:
I think it's better to object to the laws that declare Trump did anything wrong. If he actually committed aggression, on the other hand, he should be punished regardless of who found the information, or how it was found, or why it was looked for.

You missed the point lizard, which is that using the government to influence elections is extremely wrong.

You are implying that you approve of what Nixon did, and that it was justified because they might have discovered wrongdoing on the part of McGovern.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Should Libertarians Care if the FBI Spied on Trump Campaign?
Reply #8 - May 23rd, 2018 at 11:17pm
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The Opposition wrote on May 23rd, 2018 at 12:04am:
I think it's better to object to the laws that declare Trump did anything wrong. If he actually committed aggression, on the other hand, he should be punished regardless of who found the information, or how it was found, or why it was looked for.

In a purely libertarian world, a private security company or even a private individual would easily do what the FBI is doing, and it wouldn't be aggression.


It's not a big deal Oppo. The investigation must continue and if Trump is guilt free then he has nothing to worry about.

The real question is, why is he so worried and trying to obstruct justice by stopping Mueller. Doesn't he understand that Mueller is just doing what is right for Trump and right for Trump's country?
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Should Libertarians Care if the FBI Spied on Trump Campaign?
Reply #9 - May 23rd, 2018 at 11:30pm
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Jeff wrote on May 23rd, 2018 at 3:23pm:
You missed the point lizard, which is that using the government to influence elections is extremely wrong.

You are implying that you approve of what Nixon did, and that it was justified because they might have discovered wrongdoing on the part of McGovern.


I'm implying that if they did discover wrong (actual wrong: aggression) it would have still been wrong.

Your way implies that people with a bias against X should somehow be prevented from investigating X.

This will quickly devolve into police who think murderers are murders being unable to apprehend them.

"Why are you investigating that man for murder?! Why, you have a bias, I bet! I bet you think he's a murderer! Shame on you, evil cop!"
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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