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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Should Libertarians Care if the FBI Spied on Trump Campaign? (Read 225 times)
Sicklers Dink
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Re: Should Libertarians Care if the FBI Spied on Trump Campaign?
Reply #10 - May 23rd, 2018 at 11:42pm
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The Opposition wrote on May 23rd, 2018 at 11:30pm:
I'm implying that if they did discover wrong (actual wrong: aggression) it would have still been wrong.

Your way implies that people with a bias against X should somehow be prevented from investigating X.

This will quickly devolve into police who think murderers are murders being unable to apprehend them.

"Why are you investigating that man for murder?! Why, you have a bias, I bet! I bet you think he's a murderer! Shame on you, evil cop!"


That's interesting because it's you betraying a truth. That crime, including the ultimate crime of murder, has become so prevalent in the US now that police are starting to ignore it when it's perped on a white person.

For years police have ignored murder of black people and have even become the murderers themselves.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Should Libertarians Care if the FBI Spied on Trump Campaign?
Reply #11 - May 24th, 2018 at 9:06am
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The Opposition wrote on May 23rd, 2018 at 11:30pm:
I'm implying that if they did discover wrong (actual wrong: aggression) it would have still been wrong.

Your way implies that people with a bias against X should somehow be prevented from investigating X.

This will quickly devolve into police who think murderers are murders being unable to apprehend them.

"Why are you investigating that man for murder?! Why, you have a bias, I bet! I bet you think he's a murderer! Shame on you, evil cop!"

Using the government to spy on your political opponents is very wrong.

You are implying that Obama had knowledge of illegal activity by Trump or the Trump campaign before the FBI was sent to investigate, that they had reasonable cause that they could take to a Judge and get a warrant to spy on Trump and the Trump campaign... Was a warrant granted based on reasonable cause?

http://dailycaller.com/2018/05/23/mueller-delay-russia-trial/

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/fbi-appears-ready-to-miss-another-deadli...

https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/bill-dagostino/2018/05/23/what-changed-same...

Reasonable cause is required before police can "investigate" someone suspected of murder too.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Should Libertarians Care if the FBI Spied on Trump Campaign?
Reply #12 - May 25th, 2018 at 12:35am
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Jeff wrote on May 24th, 2018 at 9:06am:
Using the government to spy on your political opponents is very wrong.

You are implying that Obama had knowledge of illegal activity by Trump or the Trump campaign before the FBI was sent to investigate, that they had reasonable cause that they could take to a Judge and get a warrant to spy on Trump and the Trump campaign... Was a warrant granted based on reasonable cause?

http://dailycaller.com/2018/05/23/mueller-delay-russia-trial/

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/fbi-appears-ready-to-miss-another-deadli...

https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/bill-dagostino/2018/05/23/what-changed-same...

Reasonable cause is required before police can "investigate" someone suspected of murder too.


Well that's not right. If there is aggression, it doesn't matter who discovers it or how. It's still aggression.

Now, if there's not aggression, and people without the authority to do so (not affiliated with a private court) are forcing people to divulge this and that, then they're guilty of aggression.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Should Libertarians Care if the FBI Spied on Trump Campaign?
Reply #13 - May 25th, 2018 at 8:04am
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The Opposition wrote on May 25th, 2018 at 12:35am:
Well that's not right. If there is aggression, it doesn't matter who discovers it or how. It's still aggression.

Now, if there's not aggression, and people without the authority to do so (not affiliated with a private court) are forcing people to divulge this and that, then they're guilty of aggression.
Anyone with knowledge of wrongdoing is obligated to reveal the information, which is not at all the same as using the government to dig up dirt on your political opponents in order to discredit them and remain "in power".

Controlling the DOJ and DHS and all the investigative power of their multiple departments and agencies gives Presidents a huge and unfair advantage if they are allowed to deploy those tax funded resources for political purposes.

Whistleblowers within those agencies are supposed to reveal such wrongdoing when they discover it, but whistleblowers are all too frequently prosecuted.
  
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Re: Should Libertarians Care if the FBI Spied on Trump Campaign?
Reply #14 - May 25th, 2018 at 8:51am
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It's quite disturbing if it's true.  The FBI protected Hillary, did they protect Lois Lerner as well?
  
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Re: Should Libertarians Care if the FBI Spied on Trump Campaign?
Reply #15 - May 25th, 2018 at 12:01pm
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We'd like to think that no government agency is above the Law.  But that's simply not the case.

FBI, CIA, IRS, DHS, and countless local law enforcement agencies operate outside the Law (but only when it suits them, of course).

Long ago, we had oversight and accountability of these agencies.  Government got too powerful, so oversight and accountability sorta faded away. 
  
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Sicklers Dink
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Re: Should Libertarians Care if the FBI Spied on Trump Campaign?
Reply #16 - May 25th, 2018 at 12:13pm
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SkyChief wrote on May 25th, 2018 at 12:01pm:
We'd like to think that no government agency is above the Law.  But that's simply not the case.

FBI, CIA, IRS, DHS, and countless local law enforcement agencies operate outside the Law (but only when it suits them, of course).

Long ago, we had oversight and accountability of these agencies.  Government got too powerful, so oversight and accountability sorta faded away. 


Libertarians should care, as all Americans should care. But they should be able to trust the FBI's incentive to 'spy' on the Trump campaign. That is, be able to consider that spying could be justifiable.

IF the Trump campaign was involved in illegal actions then the FBI would be negligent if it ignored it.

I believe now that was the case. You probably don't. Or at least haven't considered it being the case yet.

It's not a case of whether libertarians should care, it's a case of whether the FBI was justified in spying.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Should Libertarians Care if the FBI Spied on Trump Campaign?
Reply #17 - May 25th, 2018 at 12:29pm
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Sicklers Dink wrote on May 25th, 2018 at 12:13pm:
It's not a case of whether libertarians should care, it's a case of whether the FBI was justified in spying.

The point I was making is that it doesn't matter if the FBI was justified in spying.  Like other intel-gathering agencies, the FBI operates outside of the Law. They are now immune to oversight.

The PATRIOT Act, which passed in 2001 allows government to overstep the 4th Amendment and "spy" on citizens without warrant.

SCOTUS should have immediately struck it down, but Americans were staggering from the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11th, so they pretended not to care.
  
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Sicklers Dink
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Re: Should Libertarians Care if the FBI Spied on Trump Campaign?
Reply #18 - May 25th, 2018 at 12:48pm
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SkyChief wrote on May 25th, 2018 at 12:29pm:
The point I was making is that it doesn't matter if the FBI was justified in spying.  Like other intel-gathering agencies, the FBI operates outside of the Law. They are now immune to oversight.


Very interesting comment Chief! I'm not trying to debate you on this one but I will add: The FBI needs to be somewhat immune from politically biased oversight. They could be said to be the last bastion of trusting for your country. They're the law at the highest level. Save for the Scotus which can't be trusted because of obvious political bias.

Was the FBI politically biased to the level of corruption? That's possibly worth debating. In Comey's case, and he's the main subject right now, it appears that if he was biased then his bias flowed both ways. He's condemned by the Dems as well as by the Repubs.

Quote:
The PATRIOT Act, which passed in 2001 allows government to overstep the 4th Amendment and "spy" on citizens without warrant.


The problem then is the patriot act, not the FBI's, which has been authorized by it.

Quote:
SCOTUS should have immediately struck it down, but Americans were staggering from the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11th, so they pretended not to care.


Maybe the Scotus should have struck it down. But that wasn't decided by any political bias. There's a good argument to say that it was/is necessary, as well as a good argument to say it wasn't/isn't.

Clearly the big issue here on this thread is the FBI. The FBI represents the law at the highest order. Trump and his gang are intent on destroying the FBI, or at least it's credibility. I'm of the opinion that's not justifiable.

And then the question comes down to Mueller. Is that all politically biased?

Maybe the only way of deciding that is to ask the question: Do we believe Trump or Mueller?

I find the answer rather easy and elementary.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Should Libertarians Care if the FBI Spied on Trump Campaign?
Reply #19 - May 25th, 2018 at 4:17pm
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RubyHypatia wrote on May 25th, 2018 at 8:51am:
It's quite disturbing if it's true.  The FBI protected Hillary, did they protect Lois Lerner as well?   
Lois Lerner's boss protected her, bu that has no connection to using the FBI to gather politically useful material so that your Party can remain in power.
  
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