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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Should Libertarians Care if the FBI Spied on Trump Campaign? (Read 222 times)
RubyHypatia
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Re: Should Libertarians Care if the FBI Spied on Trump Campaign?
Reply #20 - May 25th, 2018 at 8:17pm
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The point, Billie, is that the FBI is being used for political purposes.  Aside from the possibility that they were spying on the Trump campaign, they protected Hillary.  This is bad for democracy.
  
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Sicklers Dink
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Re: Should Libertarians Care if the FBI Spied on Trump Campaign?
Reply #21 - May 25th, 2018 at 8:22pm
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RubyHypatia wrote on May 25th, 2018 at 8:17pm:
The point, Billie, is that the FBI is being used for political purposes.  Aside from the possibility that they were spying on the Trump campaign, they protected Hillary.  This is bad for democracy.


The Dems claim they destroyed Hillary's chances and they have a case too.

Comey being disliked for biased reasons on both sides tells it all. Trump fukked up when he fired Comey and your FBI aren't going to let him get away with it.
  
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Re: Should Libertarians Care if the FBI Spied on Trump Campaign?
Reply #22 - May 25th, 2018 at 10:49pm
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Sicklers Dink wrote on May 25th, 2018 at 12:48pm:
Clearly the big issue here on this thread is the FBI. The FBI represents the law at the highest order.

Agreed.  And this is the problem.  (Most) Americans no longer trust the FBI. 


Sicklers Dink wrote on May 25th, 2018 at 12:48pm:
And then the question comes down to Mueller. Is that all politically biased?

Time will  tell.  If Mueller plays his cards before Sept 1st,  I would say no,  the investigation is NOT politically biased.   

But if Mueller waits until Oct 26th to lay out indictments, then he is obviously using his executive powers for political gain.  There will be a tremendous backlash.   

The longer Mueller drags out the investigation, the more Trump benefits.
  
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Sicklers Dink
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Re: Should Libertarians Care if the FBI Spied on Trump Campaign?
Reply #23 - May 25th, 2018 at 11:37pm
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SkyChief wrote on May 25th, 2018 at 10:49pm:
Agreed.  And this is the problem.  (Most) Americans no longer trust the FBI. 


Time will  tell.  If Mueller plays his cards before Sept 1st,  I would say no,  the investigation is NOT politically biased.   

But if Mueller waits until Oct 26th to lay out indictments, then he is obviously using his executive powers for political gain.  There will be a tremendous backlash.   

The longer Mueller drags out the investigation, the more Trump benefits.


You've already decided for us. Mueller can't do it within 60 days of an election. But there will be the backlash because it's going to be all about which side can spin it the best.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Should Libertarians Care if the FBI Spied on Trump Campaign?
Reply #24 - May 26th, 2018 at 2:00am
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Jeff wrote on May 25th, 2018 at 8:04am:
Anyone with knowledge of wrongdoing is obligated to reveal the information, which is not at all the same as using the government to dig up dirt on your political opponents in order to discredit them and remain "in power".


Why does it matter why someone is discovering aggression if there really is aggression? Once again, you're suggesting that motives of investigators give aggressors a free pass. Whoops, this investigator was biased. There was a crime but... now we gotta let him go. Sorry!

Don't aggress, and it won't matter how many people get hired to "dig up dirt" on you. Make sure there's no dirt.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Should Libertarians Care if the FBI Spied on Trump Campaign?
Reply #25 - May 26th, 2018 at 9:24am
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The Opposition wrote on May 26th, 2018 at 2:00am:
Why does it matter why someone is discovering aggression if there really is aggression?
It's all part of a presumption of innocence, which goes out the window when an investigation is started to discover if a targeted individual has broken some law, which, considering the number and complexity of federal laws, is almost a certainty... And there's always the "She lied to the FBI" crime that lies in wait for those being investigated for political purposes, and the political damage that occurs when someone refuses to talk to the FBI, as is their right.

Using the powers of government to preserve your political power by targeting your political opponents for investigation is wrong.
  
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Sicklers Dink
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Re: Should Libertarians Care if the FBI Spied on Trump Campaign?
Reply #26 - May 26th, 2018 at 1:02pm
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The Opposition wrote on May 26th, 2018 at 2:00am:
Why does it matter why someone is discovering aggression if there really is aggression? Once again, you're suggesting that motives of investigators give aggressors a free pass. Whoops, this investigator was biased. There was a crime but... now we gotta let him go. Sorry!

Don't aggress, and it won't matter how many people get hired to "dig up dirt" on you. Make sure there's no dirt.


Well said Oppo! That's cutting right through the rightist bias for us. We're on the same page with that fact.
  
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Sicklers Dink
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Re: Should Libertarians Care if the FBI Spied on Trump Campaign?
Reply #27 - May 26th, 2018 at 1:06pm
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Jeff wrote on May 26th, 2018 at 9:24am:
It's all part of a presumption of innocence, which goes out the window when an investigation is started to discover if a targeted individual has broken some law, which, considering the number and complexity of federal laws, is almost a certainty... And there's always the "She lied to the FBI" crime that lies in wait for those being investigated for political purposes, and the political damage that occurs when someone refuses to talk to the FBI, as is their right.

Using the powers of government to preserve your political power by targeting your political opponents for investigation is wrong.


All you really wanted to say is that it's fine if it's a Dem being investigated. There. In less than two lines. And space left over to say you've still not recovered from your 10k$ slapdown by government Craig (jay) Sickler!
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Should Libertarians Care if the FBI Spied on Trump Campaign?
Reply #28 - May 26th, 2018 at 5:56pm
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Jeff wrote on May 26th, 2018 at 9:24am:
It's all part of a presumption of innocence, which goes out the window when an investigation is started to discover if a targeted individual has broken some law, which, considering the number and complexity of federal laws, is almost a certainty... And there's always the "She lied to the FBI" crime that lies in wait for those being investigated for political purposes, and the political damage that occurs when someone refuses to talk to the FBI, as is their right.

Using the powers of government to preserve your political power by targeting your political opponents for investigation is wrong.


The bolded part is the problem. And I keep saying aggression, so I would hope you'd know by now that I only mean if they discover actual aggression, which I've only said like ten rimes.

If Trump didn't aggress, then he shouldn't be punished. If he did, then he should. It's a lot simpler than you're making it.
  

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Re: Should Libertarians Care if the FBI Spied on Trump Campaign?
Reply #29 - May 26th, 2018 at 7:11pm
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The Opposition wrote on May 26th, 2018 at 5:56pm:
The bolded part is the problem. And I keep saying aggression, so I would hope you'd know by now that I only mean if they discover actual aggression, which I've only said like ten rimes.

If Trump didn't aggress, then he shouldn't be punished. If he did, then he should. It's a lot simpler than you're making it.
Most Federal Laws have nothing to do with aggression. There is no one who is harmed and therefore no one has complained.

It is the government that complains that it's subjects have not followed the regulations it has laid out for them, all 60,000 pages of them.

In cases like "Go see if you can find out if McGovern is doing something illegal", that in itself is the aggression, aggression by the government in regard to our right to have a fair political process, not one tainted by government abuse of power.

In my opinion, Obama did aggress and should be indicted.
  
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