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SnarkySack
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Re: War Powers Act Doesn't Work
Reply #40 - Jun 6th, 2018 at 8:48am
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Jeff wrote on Jun 6th, 2018 at 8:28am:
I disagree as you know.

The Constitution was designed to create a national government with a few limited enumerated powers that would enable it to protect the nation from foreign invasion, prevent trade wars between states, provide sound money and standardized weights and measures, foster communications between individuals, protect the Rights and Liberty of every individual equally etc.

The fact the most power, including almost all police power and the power of local and state courts and juries was left with the states, who also were given the power to choose Senators and keep their State Militias ensured that the new federal government would not become more powerful. The States, through the Senators they appointed had a veto power over the Executive so the Executive could not raise armies or start wars.

The power to raise money was left at the discretion of the House of (the People's) Representatives.

A Supreme Court was created to make sure that neither the Executive or the Legislative branches could usurp power by misinterpreting the Constitution or passing laws outside the legitimate grants of power.

Every thing that could possibly be thought of was done to make sure the federal government would remain a limited servant and never become a master.

Preserving the Blessings of Liberty was at the top of duties given to the new government.


It was intended to do all that - or at least to appear to do all that - as a way of selling the states on turning over power to the new, stronger, central government.  The provisions for limitations on that power had no enforcement mechanism, but clearly the provisions for taxation were enforceable.  GW was pretty ineffective, but he did claim the power to use force to take money from producers and give it to France or whoever.

You aren’t interested in my top two ways to satisfy.  The Revolutionary War debt without pointing guns at people?

  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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Jeff
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Re: War Powers Act Doesn't Work
Reply #41 - Jun 6th, 2018 at 9:01am
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SnarkySack wrote on Jun 6th, 2018 at 8:48am:
It was intended to do all that - or at least to appear to do all that - as a way of selling the states on turning over power to the new, stronger, central government.  The provisions for limitations on that power had no enforcement mechanism, but clearly the provisions for taxation were enforceable.
The People's chosen Representatives could refuse to fund it. Governors could call out their Militias. State Representatives (elected by the People) could recall U.S. Senators. The Supreme Court could rule laws unconstitutional.

In case you didn't know, a very lot of the people who helped draft the Constitution came from those State legislatures you claim were being railroaded into granting unlimited power over themselves. The States were also the people who ratified the new Constitution.

You talk as if some "National Government" outside the existing State governments created the Constitution and imposed in on the States by chicanery and misdirection and lies.
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: War Powers Act Doesn't Work
Reply #42 - Jun 6th, 2018 at 9:54am
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Jeff wrote on Jun 6th, 2018 at 9:01am:
The People's chosen Representatives


Representatives chosen by a small minority of the people, is a more accurate way to put it.

Quote:
could refuse to fund it. Governors could call out their Militias. State Representatives (elected by the People) could recall U.S. Senators. [quote] The Supreme Court could rule laws unconstitutional.


They could do those things.  But they were not required to and rarely if ever did.  Do you know of some examples of senators being recalled for violating the constitution's limits? 

As for using state militias to protect a state from federal overstepping, the constitution gives the federal government the power to take control of any or all state's militias at any time it deems it necessary, so according to the constitution, that would only work if the federal government, for some bizarre reason, allowed it.

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The Supreme Court could rule laws unconstitutional.


The Supreme Court has exercised the power to declare laws unconstitutional, but the power to do that is not in the constitution itself.  So that exercise of power is an example of government violating the constitution not enforcing it.  The Supreme Court invented that power for themselves in one of their first cases, Marbury v. Madison.


Those politicians in the states were no better than politicians in the new strong national government.   They just had less power, which is a good thing to a libertarian. 

Quote:
In case you didn't know, a very lot of the people who helped draft the Constitution came from those State legislatures you claim were being railroaded into granting unlimited power over themselves. The States were also the people who ratified the new Constitution.

You talk as if some "National Government" outside the existing State governments created the Constitution and imposed in on the States by chicanery and misdirection and lies.


Yes, as soon as the constitutional convention decided to go beyond what they were sent to do:

The Constitutional Convention took place from May 14 to September 17, 1787, in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. The point of the event was decide how America was going to be governed.Although the Convention had been officially called to revise the existing Articles of Confederation, many delegates had much bigger plans. Men like James Madison and Alexander Hamilton wanted to create a new government rather than fix the existing one. The delegates elected George Washington to preside over the Convention.

https://www.constitutionfacts.com/us-constitution-amendments/the-constitutional-...

they became a provisional national government outside of the control of the states' governments.

George W. is always presented as this modest man who almost reluctantly took on the job of first president.  Give me a break.  He was president of the committee, surely he had to have an eye on the powrful that he himself was creating.  Madison, Jefferson, Hamilton and the others were no less ambitious and their ambitions could only be brought to fruition if they convinced the states to turn over these enormous new powers. 

So they put limitations on this power which they then cheerfully ignored after ratification.  Your position is that the state legislatures of Pennsylvania would have eagerly signed the constitution if they knew it would lead to Washington invading their state to tax its citizens?


  

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Jeff
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Re: War Powers Act Doesn't Work
Reply #43 - Jun 6th, 2018 at 1:48pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Jun 6th, 2018 at 9:54am:
Representatives chosen by a small minority of the people, is a more accurate way to put it.
Yes, later on, in the Progressive Era, 'democrats' decided universal suffrage would bring us a better class of Representatives, but it hasn't.
  
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Re: War Powers Act Doesn't Work
Reply #44 - Jun 6th, 2018 at 1:51pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Jun 6th, 2018 at 9:54am:
They could do those things.  But they were not required to and rarely if ever did.  Do you know of some examples of senators being recalled for violating the constitution's limits? 


You complained of "no enforcement mechanisms", now you change your complaint to  the enforcement methods not having been used.

As it turned out, the violations began to occur almost exclusively after the power of State governments to recall Senators was removed by the 17th Amendment. Another brilliant idea by "progressives" that would make America more 'democratic'.
  
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Re: War Powers Act Doesn't Work
Reply #45 - Jun 6th, 2018 at 1:55pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Jun 6th, 2018 at 9:54am:
As for using state militias to protect a state from federal overstepping, the constitution gives the federal government the power to take control of any or all state's militias at any time it deems it necessary, so according to the constitution, that would only work if the federal government, for some bizarre reason, allowed it.
It would work in a time where the people recognized that the federal government was becoming tyrannical and they took Jefferson's advice and resorted to force of arms as a last resort to protect Liberty, the theory being that the State Militias would have more loyalty to the states they and their families lived in than to a federal government bent on tyranny.
  
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Re: War Powers Act Doesn't Work
Reply #46 - Jun 6th, 2018 at 2:03pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Jun 6th, 2018 at 9:54am:
The Supreme Court has exercised the power to declare laws unconstitutional, but the power to do that is not in the constitution itself. 
You are wrong. The Constitution grants the Courts jurisdiction in all cases arising under the Constitution.

To qoute Hamilton from Federalist #78-

"The complete independence of the courts of justice is peculiarly essential in a limited Constitution. By a limited Constitution, I understand one which contains certain specified exceptions to the legislative authority; such, for instance, as that it shall pass no bills of attainder, no ex-post-facto laws, and the like. Limitations of this kind can be preserved in practice no other way than through the medium of courts of justice, whose duty it must be to declare all acts contrary to the manifest tenor of the Constitution void. Without this, all the reservations of particular rights or privileges would amount to nothing."

  
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Jeff
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Re: War Powers Act Doesn't Work
Reply #47 - Jun 6th, 2018 at 2:06pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Jun 6th, 2018 at 9:54am:
Those politicians in the states were no better than politicians in the new strong national government.   They just had less power, which is a good thing to a libertarian. 
They had/have more power in ways that relate directly to citizens, police power to be exact. Their advantage is that they are more easily controlled. Certainly they were easily controlled when a State Representative was likely to be well known in his community.
  
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Jeff
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Re: War Powers Act Doesn't Work
Reply #48 - Jun 6th, 2018 at 2:10pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Jun 6th, 2018 at 9:54am:
Yes, as soon as the constitutional convention decided to go beyond what they were sent to do:
They worked very hard to produce a Constitution that they proposed would both protect individual Liberty and fund a government that could protect the fledgling nation from being absorbed by on or more of the Colonial powers that surrounded in in America, then they offered the Constitution for ratification. Until it was ratified, it was nothing but a proposal.

I already know you don't like the ratification procedure because it wasn't/isn't 'democratic' enough to suit you.
  
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Re: War Powers Act Doesn't Work
Reply #49 - Jun 6th, 2018 at 2:13pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Jun 6th, 2018 at 9:54am:
George W. is always presented as this modest man who almost reluctantly took on the job of first president.  Give me a break.  He was president of the committee, surely he had to have an eye on the powrful that he himself was creating.  Madison, Jefferson, Hamilton and the others were no less ambitious and their ambitions could only be brought to fruition if they convinced the states to turn over these enormous new powers. 

So they put limitations on this power which they then cheerfully ignored after ratification.  Your position is that the state legislatures of Pennsylvania would have eagerly signed the constitution if they knew it would lead to Washington invading their state to tax its citizens?


I won't accuse you of being ignorant of history, only of constantly spinning it from an anti-American point of view.
  
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