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SnarkySack
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Homelessness in Nazi Germany
Jun 6th, 2018 at 8:20am
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Homeless people under the Nazis, did not live under bridges and harass people for money with which to buy the very substances that led to their conditions.  Such people were classified as “Arbeitschuctern” or “work shy” in English.  They were rounded up and taken to camps where they could work and be fed.  Not exactly the good life, but they were certainly better off than starving on the streets. 

Do I advocate that?  Not at all.  I’m a libertarian so my desire to avoid looking at dirty bums doesn’ trump the natural right to live as one pleases.  But for the statists on this board, I’m wondering why in the world they would not support a system very similar to Nazism. 

Take the two odious parts of Nazism out of the equation:  The anti-Semitism and the wars.  Then you have an almost ideal mixed economy in which the government maintains strict order while allowing business to thrive so long as it pays its taxes and supports government social goals.  Under the Nazis, Germany recovered from a devastating loss in WWI, a far worse depression than the U.S. experienced and a currency collapse that led to fantastic inflation.  The Nazis bootstrapped Germany into a prosperous nation with far more success than the New Dealers who tried so hard to be like them.

So what about it, statists?  Tell my why - once we accept the idea of government taking our freedom for our own good - we don’t advocate the most effective form of statism, which is fascism?
  

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Sicklers Dink
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Re: Homelessness in Nazi Germany
Reply #1 - Jun 6th, 2018 at 3:12pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Jun 6th, 2018 at 8:20am:
Homeless people under the Nazis, did not live under bridges and harass people for money with which to buy the very substances that led to their conditions.  Such people were classified as “Arbeitschuctern” or “work shy” in English.  They were rounded up and taken to camps where they could work and be fed.  Not exactly the good life, but they were certainly better off than starving on the streets. 

Do I advocate that?  Not at all.  I’m a libertarian so my desire to avoid looking at dirty bums doesn’ trump the natural right to live as one pleases.  But for the statists on this board, I’m wondering why in the world they would not support a system very similar to Nazism. 

Take the two odious parts of Nazism out of the equation:  The anti-Semitism and the wars.  Then you have an almost ideal mixed economy in which the government maintains strict order while allowing business to thrive so long as it pays its taxes and supports government social goals.  Under the Nazis, Germany recovered from a devastating loss in WWI, a far worse depression than the U.S. experienced and a currency collapse that led to fantastic inflation.  The Nazis bootstrapped Germany into a prosperous nation with far more success than the New Dealers who tried so hard to be like them.

So what about it, statists?  Tell my why - once we accept the idea of government taking our freedom for our own good - we don’t advocate the most effective form of statism, which is fascism?


We socialists don't advocate rounding up people and putting them in work camps and we don't advocate letting them starve on the streets either. That could make us statists and if so then I'm happy to wear the name.

You must not be aware of the other third solution to the question.

And it's a pity for you that you can't ask me about it. After somebody else comments on this thread then you will be able to address the question and answer. I hope it doesn't take too long and you start to lose interest.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Homelessness in Nazi Germany
Reply #2 - Jun 6th, 2018 at 4:52pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Jun 6th, 2018 at 8:20am:
So what about it, statists?  Tell my why - once we accept the idea of government taking our freedom for our own good - we don’t advocate the most effective form of statism, which is fascism?


"I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." - Thomas Jefferson
  
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Jeff
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Re: Homelessness in Nazi Germany
Reply #3 - Jun 6th, 2018 at 5:41pm
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Sicklers Dink wrote on Jun 6th, 2018 at 3:12pm:
We socialists don't advocate rounding up people and putting them in work camps...
You've grown out of something you always did?

Why should we believe you now?

The number of people who believed you and died is huge.

"Progressives" have always held the idea that human progress could only occur if elite humans were in charge and permitted to get defectives and sub-humans and vermin out of the way of human progress as a core idea of Progressivism.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Homelessness in Nazi Germany
Reply #4 - Jun 6th, 2018 at 5:43pm
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SkyChief wrote on Jun 6th, 2018 at 4:52pm:
"I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." - Thomas Jefferson
Once again Chief, you have put Red in his place. Thanks.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Homelessness in Nazi Germany
Reply #5 - Jun 6th, 2018 at 5:47pm
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Sicklers Dink wrote on Jun 6th, 2018 at 3:12pm:
You must not be aware of the other third solution to the question.


The "other" third solution?

How many "Third Ways" will we have to suffer through before  they decide that a "Fourth Way" will be just the ticket to save everything through good decisions by bureaucrats?

Is there an emoticon thing for puking to dearth?
  
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Sicklers Dink
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Re: Homelessness in Nazi Germany
Reply #6 - Jun 6th, 2018 at 7:57pm
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Jeff wrote on Jun 6th, 2018 at 5:47pm:
The "other" third solution?

How many "Third Ways" will we have to suffer through before  they decide that a "Fourth Way" will be just the ticket to save everything through good decisions by bureaucrats?

Is there an emoticon thing for puking to dearth?


Work camps and starvation was proven to not work in a capitalist system. It actually caused the birth of communism.

Communism, as you know, took it to the opposite extreme and that didn't work either.

The most progressive and happiest countries in the world have moderated the approach and found a stable middle ground. It's called 'socially responsible capitalism'.

I just love to keep reminding of it, even though you understood what it is the first time I had to mention it.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Homelessness in Nazi Germany
Reply #7 - Jun 6th, 2018 at 10:37pm
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Another good thing about the system is that they did socialised medicine right. No insurance power grabbing. Doctors are State employees and if you want to go to the doctor, go to the doctor.

Yes, there were lines, but that's probably the best natural inhibitor on hypochondriac behaviour.

Obviously this sort of Statism is morally wrong, but the results are positive.
  

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Not taking Jeff seriously until he admits this is animal abuse (which he says should be illegal): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE-IT7_CaE4
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Jeff
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Re: Homelessness in Nazi Germany
Reply #8 - Jun 7th, 2018 at 6:42am
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Sicklers Dink wrote on Jun 6th, 2018 at 7:57pm:
The most progressive and happiest countries in the world have moderated the approach and found a stable middle ground. It's called 'socially responsible capitalism'.
It's what many governments were doing during the industrial revolution, 'guiding' their economies by choosing which crony companies should succeed and giving them special monopoly powers.

I suppose you imagine that governments are better now, filled with better people, so the choices they make about which businesses should be helped will be better? Yes, you probably do, you think all those huge bureaucracies are now filled with "socially responsible" people, selflessly making good decisions for everyone's benefit... That's delusional Dong.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Homelessness in Nazi Germany
Reply #9 - Jun 7th, 2018 at 6:47am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 6th, 2018 at 10:37pm:
Another good thing about the system is that they did socialised medicine right. No insurance power grabbing. Doctors are State employees and if you want to go to the doctor, go to the doctor.

Yes, there were lines, but that's probably the best natural inhibitor on hypochondriac behaviour.

Obviously this sort of Statism is morally wrong, but the results are positive.
You contrast "socialized medicine" with "heavily regulated medicine" and choose the "socialized" version as working better, but what you offer is a false choice, sort of like this-

http://reason.com/blog/2018/06/06/feinstein-breezes-to-victory-collapsing?utm_me...

If the choice is between a Democratic Socialist and a socialist Democrat, it's not really a choice...

In the realm of medical services, the best choice is a free market for those services, just as a free market for any sort of insurance is the best choice.
  
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