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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Darwinian Evolution and Libertarianism v. Statism (Read 660 times)
Jeff
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Re: Darwinian Evolution and Libertarianism v. Statism
Reply #10 - Jun 9th, 2018 at 4:39pm
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SkyChief wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 4:30pm:
Nope. Sorry Jeff.  I wont permit you equate religion with science.
I didn't. I pointed out that both religion and science evolve with new human input. Individual human input has changed both religion and science.

Piss off with the idea that I require your permission Chief.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Darwinian Evolution and Libertarianism v. Statism
Reply #11 - Jun 9th, 2018 at 9:14pm
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I'm both. Genetically I'm an r-type Statist. I have come to believe that only libertarianism is morally correct, however, and that Statism is wrong.

SnarkySack wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 7:14am:
Those on here who are both Darwinian evolutionists and libertarians (I see no conflict at all), I have a few questions:

1 - How does evolutionary theory explain the disparity in IQ among people of different races?


You get what you need and not what you don't, mainly due to the waste of energy factor. High IQ also has advantages when the ability to plan ahead will benefit you, but living in the immediate and being unable to plan ahead will actually benefit you if others will only steal all the food you just stored. And the larger carrying capacity of places with abundant food will see to it that there are always others around.

I see some significant differences with respect to these two types of behaviour where hot (but not desert) versus cold climates are concerned. If food is abundant year-round, it's probably best to stop thinking about the future so much, stay cool (the brain makes a lot of heat) and just get what you can on an opportunistic basis. Cold climates necessitate not only planning ahead, but cooperation. If one thief starts stealing the stored food and horking it down because he's living in the immediate, the rest have to get rid of him.

Rodents are among the smartest animals. They're also among the few animals to actively store food. Well, what do humans do in cold climates that they don't do in hot climates? And where are the highest IQ areas concentrated? Where are the lowest IQ areas concentrated? It's like someone drew a line on the equator and slashed peoples' IQs in half. (Minor hyperbole, but I feel it works.)

SnarkySack wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 7:14am:
2 - Is it possible that humans could evolve in such a way that statism is best for us?


Absolutely. I think a lot of cultures already have. People with an instinctive desire to live in a place where people don't waste energy on stealing will favour police existing who have the power to force those thieves not to steal.

I think a lot of cultures - the ones with no cheaters - already do better under Statism. The government saps a lot of resources with its chronic inefficiency and bureaucracy, but the cheaters sap more. And where there's little invested in deception-detection and the cheaters are protected from tyrannical punishments with rights, rights, and more rights, cheaters prosper and the society loses.

In libertarian societies, the EV (Expected Value) of committing a crime is often positive. If it is only moral to extract reparation for damage done (As Rothbard believes), the Expected Value of crime can only be positive, even if the chance of being caught and punished is 99.999999999%.

SnarkySack wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 7:14am:
If it does happen, will that change the morality of libertarianism?


Absolutely not. I use the word absolutely quite intentionally.

Case 1: Morality is not absolute. If so, it's just up to the individual and it's pointless to try to find common ground.

Case 2: Morality is absolute. If so, it's not dependent on how many people are hurt or helped, or how, or why. Violating rights is wrong, and anything that does not violate rights is permissible.

So libertarianism, morally, must still be implemented, and those who end up on the receiving end of deception, or suffer because they follow rules that aren't there, will simply be disadvantaged until they die off, as they should.
  

Making Sci-Fi great again since 2063.

Not taking Jeff seriously until he admits this is animal abuse (which he says should be illegal): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE-IT7_CaE4
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Jeff
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Re: Darwinian Evolution and Libertarianism v. Statism
Reply #12 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 8:59am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 9:14pm:
Rodents are among the smartest animals.


Absolutely not. I use the word absolutely quite intentionally.

Case 1: Morality is not absolute. If so, it's just up to the individual and it's pointless to try to find common ground.

Case 2: Morality is absolute. If so, it's not dependent on how many people are hurt or helped, or how, or why. Violating rights is wrong, and anything that does not violate rights is permissible.

So libertarianism, morally, must still be implemented, and those who end up on the receiving end of deception, or suffer because they follow rules that aren't there, will simply be disadvantaged until they die off, as they should.
There are some moral absolutes lizard, ones that libertarians believe.

It is wrong to murder.

It is wrong to steal.

The reason these things are wrong from a libertarian viewpoint is because they violate other people's rights.

You muddy it up as usual by saying things like 'morality is either absolute or nothing but a subjective fantasy' when what you should be saying, and would say if you were a libertarian, is that it is absolutely wrong to murder and  wrong to steal.

If you have been deceived and cheated, libertarians call that theft.

Libertarians also think that all laws should be simple, transparent, easily understood by average people, that there shouldn't be very many of them and that they must be enacted by elected Representatives exercising only their legitimate Constitutionally granted powers.

That way no one is disadvantaged or advantaged by the laws, which libertarians also believe must apply equally to everyone.


Oh yes, rodents are clever and have good instincts. They are highly adaptable, but not even close to being among the smartest animals. You just think that because they seem to be smarter than lizards! Grin
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: Darwinian Evolution and Libertarianism v. Statism
Reply #13 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 9:01am
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Jeff wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 8:38am:
1) Who cares?
Libertarians should not care in a political sense.  We mind scientists will someday solve that problem and Aboriginals will be as smart as anyone else. There may even be Aboriginal mind scientists someday.

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2)Quite a few mammals are well adapted to life in water. There are even theories that humans at one time early in our evolution were adapted to live in water.


LoL!  That's one of my favorite absurdities of the pseudo-science of Darwinian evolution.  There is exactly zero evidence in the "fossil record" of any human ancestor who lived in water or had vestigial organs of an an ancestor who lived in water.  But they need some explanation of why humans losing their fur furthered the survival of the descendants of the one human-like ancestor who had no fur.  Wouldn't want to say that humans were "made" differently for a purpose, would we?

At least snakes have vestigial leg bones.  Of course no one can plausibly explain why losing the use of legs furthered the survival of the one legless species that is ancestral to all living snakes. 

And of course it wasn't evolutionary scientists who first discovered that snakes once had legs.  Anyone who read Genesis in the last thousand years knows that the serpent had legs until God said, "on your belly you shall go, and you shall eat dust all the days of your life. . . "

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The way I understand it, living organisms sometimes change to try to adapt to changing environments. Sometimes they succeed  and sometimes they die out.


Really?  They "try?"  The snail evolved a shell because it was "trying" to adapt to changing environments?  I have to hand it to the one snail ancestor from which all shelled snails come.  That was a pretty intelligent design for a snail!

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Most of the people in the Soviet Union (at least the one's who weren't killed-https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/08/russian-museum-discovers-secret-or...) "adapted" to living under a statist government. Some of them even preferred it to liberty (although they had never been free, so you can forgive them for not knowing any better).

Most of the people in the new United States of America (the ones who weren't driven off to Canada or other Colonies) "adapted" very well to being free.

I have no doubt that over a long enough period of time, people forced to live under tyrannical governments would become different than people who are free.

Maybe, over a long enough time, people who were forcibly tyrannized would learn to love it, but I think they would no longer be human at that point.


Ooh!  Oooooooh!

That's f'ing BRILLIANT!  I say that with no sarcasm whatsoever!

Now, I'm sorry I was snarky with you in the first half!

I agree with that last sentence on many levels!

I gotta go nurture my inner workaholic now, but more to come on that subject.



  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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Jeff
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Re: Darwinian Evolution and Libertarianism v. Statism
Reply #14 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 9:12am
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SnarkySack wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 9:01am:
LoL!  That's one of my favorite absurdities of the pseudo-science of Darwinian evolution.  There is exactly zero evidence in the "fossil record" of any human ancestor who lived in water or had vestigial organs of an an ancestor who lived in water. 
There isn't much at all in the way of a fossil record of human ancestors, and there is no apparent connection to any other animal life form prior to the earliest known hominid. There is also scant or no evidence that modern humans evolved from any of the early hominids. As I said, hominid remains are scarce.

Theories often sound absurd. I thought the theory that our early ancestors once lived in water was a bit of a stretch, but certainly not absurd.

There are absurd theories all around us though, always have been... Take for instance the theory that belief in God is a break with reality... That's a real corker! Cheesy
  
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Jeff
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Re: Darwinian Evolution and Libertarianism v. Statism
Reply #15 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 9:23am
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SnarkySack wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 9:01am:
Really?  They "try?"  The snail evolved a shell because it was "trying" to adapt to changing environments?
Yes, of course living organisms try to adapt to changing environments. If they don't try, they just die out.

There are lots of organisms that it's hard to imagine being created by evolution, but some are simple (even though what is surmised might not be correct).

Giraffes found themselves in an environment where food was becoming more scarce and maybe there were more of some other types of animals competing for the available food. So the Giraffes tried to reach leaves higher on the trees and the amazing feedback loop between body and mind induced genetic alterations that resulted in giraffe babies being born with longer necks and longer legs too Smiley

That's one way it might work. It could even be correct.

Some people think it was just random genetic changes that happened to result in some snails being born with the beginnings of shells, although it's hard for me to see how having just a part of a shell would be any advantage... And it's also hard to believe that a sort of slug suddenly gave birth to a snail... That would require a lot of genetic alterations.

BTW, it's not really important to me how evolution works, and I don't think anybody really knows.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Darwinian Evolution and Libertarianism v. Statism
Reply #16 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 9:28am
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SnarkySack wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 9:01am:
Ooh!  Oooooooh!

That's f'ing BRILLIANT!  I say that with no sarcasm whatsoever!

Now, I'm sorry I was snarky with you in the first half!

I agree with that last sentence on many levels!

I gotta go nurture my inner workaholic now, but more to come on that subject.



Don't get too excited Red, but I look forward to your thoughts on this point.
  
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Sicklers Dink
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Re: Darwinian Evolution and Libertarianism v. Statism
Reply #17 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 11:27am
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Jeff wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 9:23am:
........and the amazing feedback loop between body and mind induced genetic alterations ..............


That's silly. The god created giraffes exactly the way they are today obviously. There are many depictions of giraffes standing in Noah's ark with their heads sticking out the roof.

Oh, and female giraffes were created fro a rib bone of a male giraffe.

It's a sin to make light of creation Craig.

Stick to Darwin's version.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Darwinian Evolution and Libertarianism v. Statism
Reply #18 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 12:48pm
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Jeff wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 9:23am:
Yes, of course living organisms try to adapt to changing environments. If they don't try, they just die out.

Exactly.  This is the most fundamental axiom of Darwinian Evolution. 

Of course, it falls apart when steam-rolled by God's Wheel Of Power:

  
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Jeff
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Re: Darwinian Evolution and Libertarianism v. Statism
Reply #19 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 2:38pm
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SkyChief wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 12:48pm:
Exactly.  This is the most fundamental axiom of Darwinian Evolution. 

Of course, it falls apart when steam-rolled by God's Wheel Of Power:

https://takethisskepticalblog.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/circular.jpg
Some Christians and Muslims believe that the Bible is the literal word of God, but I've not met many of them...

What does it have to do with the present discussion? I didn't notice anyone claiming a belief in Creationism... Maybe not ever on this forum, unless that was one of Dissident Right's beliefs?

In any case, Protestant Christianity is an individualistic religion. Protestants believe that their Faith is essentially between them and God. Islam is like that too.

That prepares them to be libertarians and libertarian supporters. If their religion is important to them, they reject collectivist ideas (at least about religion) and that's a good start!

Don't scorn their religion. Respect their Right to believe whatever they want to in matters of religion and help them to see that collectivist governments are opposed to individualist beliefs of all kinds.

Point out to the raving fundamentalists that libertarian theory supports their Right to be raving fundamentalists, and "progressives" plan to either eliminate them or breed religious fundamentalism out of them.
  
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