Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Darwinian Evolution and Libertarianism v. Statism
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Darwinian Evolution and Libertarianism v. Statism (Read 482 times)
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 30235
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Darwinian Evolution and Libertarianism v. Statism
Reply #60 - Jun 14th, 2018 at 7:28am
Print Post  
SkyChief wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 12:36am:
This has always been the status quo.  If attacked, there are only 3 possible responses;

• fight back
• flee
• submission

This rule holds true for animals, as well. 
"So whatever one wants to do to the other is permissible." is the "status quo" the lizard wants Chief. It can't give up on wanting law of the jungle anarchy to prevail.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 30235
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Darwinian Evolution and Libertarianism v. Statism
Reply #61 - Jun 14th, 2018 at 8:12am
Print Post  
SnarkySack wrote on Jun 9th, 2018 at 7:14am:
Those on here who are both Darwinian evolutionists and libertarians (I see no conflict at all), I have a few questions:

1 - How does evolutionary theory explain the disparity in IQ among people of different races?

2 - Is it possible that humans could evolve in such a way that statism is best for us?  I mean in the same way that dolphins evolved so that living in the sea is best for them even though few other mammals could thrive in those conditions.  Is the evolution of humanity into a species that thrives best under statism already happening?  If it does happen, will that change the morality of libertarianism?

Similar questions for Darwinian evolutionist statists:


1 - How does evolutionary theory explain the disparity in IQ among people of different races?

2 - Is it possible that humans could evolve in such a way that libertarianism is best for us?  I mean in the same way that dolphins evolved so that living in the sea is best for them even though few other mammals could thrive in those conditions.  Is the evolution of humanity into a species that thrives best under freedom already happening?  If it does happen, will that change the morality of statism? 
Have you reached any conclusions from all this discussion Red?

All the empirical evidence shows that humans thrive when they are most free, provided their lives and liberties are protected by a limited government.

You were excited by my speculation that perhaps if people were tyrannized long enough, they would learn to accept it/like it/"thrive" under it... But that they would, if they "evolved" to "thrive" under tyranny, no longer be human.

Let's talk more about this.

Does being resigned to tyranny because you know nothing else amount to "thriving"?

What do you mean by "thriving"? (Obviously it can't be thriving in an economic sense, since tyranny prevents that from happening...)

Is the question you are actually asking "Can the desire to be free be bred out of humans?"

I think not.


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SnarkySack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 3091
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: Darwinian Evolution and Libertarianism v. Statism
Reply #62 - Jun 14th, 2018 at 10:18am
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 8:12am:
Have you reached any conclusions from all this discussion Red?

All the empirical evidence shows that humans thrive when they are most free, provided their lives and liberties are protected by a limited government.

You were excited by my speculation that perhaps if people were tyrannized long enough, they would learn to accept it/like it/"thrive" under it... But that they would, if they "evolved" to "thrive" under tyranny, no longer be human.

Let's talk more about this.

Does being resigned to tyranny because you know nothing else amount to "thriving"?

What do you mean by "thriving"? (Obviously it can't be thriving in an economic sense, since tyranny prevents that from happening...)

Is the question you are actually asking "Can the desire to be free be bred out of humans?"

I think not.




Yes, I have to agree.  If a people did "adapt" to tyranny, they would revert back to thriving in freedom as soon as they attained it.

Thanks to Trump being not-so-bad-for-a-statist, the North Koreans may soon prove that.


  

I used to be burnsred . . .
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 30235
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Darwinian Evolution and Libertarianism v. Statism
Reply #63 - Jun 14th, 2018 at 2:03pm
Print Post  
SnarkySack wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 10:18am:
Yes, I have to agree.  If a people did "adapt" to tyranny, they would revert back to thriving in freedom as soon as they attained it.

Thanks to Trump being not-so-bad-for-a-statist, the North Koreans may soon prove that.


Trump looks like a "progressive" to me, wanting to use the power of government to do all sorts of things he thinks are good.

I'll give some thought to how Trump has reduced the size and scope of government in any way that will outlast his Presidency.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 6732
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: Darwinian Evolution and Libertarianism v. Statism
Reply #64 - Jun 14th, 2018 at 2:11pm
Print Post  
SnarkySack wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 10:18am:
Yes, I have to agree.  If a people did "adapt" to tyranny, they would revert back to thriving in freedom as soon as they attained it.


I hate to play the Somalia card, but it's obvious to me that all humans have adapted to at least some government.

Most people want their rights protected by someone other than themselves and are more than willing to be taxed for it.

Measure this against actual freedom - AnCap - and it's obvious that people are not only adapted to tyranny... they'd die without it.
  

Making Sci-Fi great again since 2063.

Not taking Jeff seriously until he admits this is animal abuse (which he says should be illegal): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE-IT7_CaE4
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 30235
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Darwinian Evolution and Libertarianism v. Statism
Reply #65 - Jun 14th, 2018 at 2:42pm
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 2:11pm:
I hate to play the Somalia card, but it's obvious to me that all humans have adapted to at least some government.

Most people want their rights protected by someone other than themselves and are more than willing to be taxed for it.

Measure this against actual freedom - AnCap - and it's obvious that people are not only adapted to tyranny... they'd die without it.
People living in anarchic situations are not free, that's why they create governments. Nation states were created to protect people from dynastic states and from other nation states.

Anarchy is not "actual freedom" unless everyone is magically transformed into a respecter of the rights of others and the NAP.

Until that magical time, limited governments tasked with protecting everyone's right equally will give us the most freedom possible in a real world, and a strictly limited government is not tyranny. If it is well designed, it acts to prevent tyranny and it is simply wrong to say people adapt to tyranny when they create a government to protect their liberty.


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SkyChief
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 6240
Joined: Aug 18th, 2014
Re: Darwinian Evolution and Libertarianism v. Statism
Reply #66 - Jun 14th, 2018 at 2:42pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 7:28am:
"So whatever one wants to do to the other is permissible." is the "status quo" the lizard wants Chief. It can't give up on wanting law of the jungle anarchy to prevail.

The Lizard makes the mistake of thinking that libertarian ideology can be applicable to the natural world.  It can't.

In the natural world, the term "permissible" is meaningless.

Permission is a human ideological construct based on morality and Law.  In the natural world, Morality and Law are not criteria for a course of action. All creatures are born with the inalienable right of self-defense.

All libertarians strongly believe in self-governance. (if they don't, they're NOT libertarian!).  By continuation, they must also believe that THEY are ultimately responsible to defend themselves - not the government.

Statists fear self-governance. They are typically weak and shy away from personal responsibility.  The want the government to make decisions for them - they want government to coddle and protect them.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 30235
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Darwinian Evolution and Libertarianism v. Statism
Reply #67 - Jun 14th, 2018 at 4:50pm
Print Post  
SkyChief wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 2:42pm:
The Lizard makes the mistake of thinking that libertarian ideology can be applicable to the natural world.  It can't.

We must be considerate.

As a lizard, it can't escape the natural world.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 6732
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: Darwinian Evolution and Libertarianism v. Statism
Reply #68 - Jun 14th, 2018 at 11:43pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 2:42pm:
People living in anarchic situations are not free, that's why they create governments.


You're confusing ideal freedom with practical freedom.

People working without minimum wage laws are arguably as bad off, but no matter how the minimum wage actually affects people, the law makes everyone less free.

SkyChief wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 2:42pm:
The Lizard makes the mistake of thinking that libertarian ideology can be applicable to the natural world.  It can't.


It applies to the human world. In other words, to the interactions humans have with animals. Humans have rights. Animals don't.
  

Making Sci-Fi great again since 2063.

Not taking Jeff seriously until he admits this is animal abuse (which he says should be illegal): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE-IT7_CaE4
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SkyChief
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 6240
Joined: Aug 18th, 2014
Re: Darwinian Evolution and Libertarianism v. Statism
Reply #69 - Jun 15th, 2018 at 12:01am
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 11:43pm:
It applies to the human world. In other words, to the interactions humans have with animals. Humans have rights. Animals don't.

Mess with a mama bear's cub.

You will learn a very condensed (and fatal) lesson about the rights of animals.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9 
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Darwinian Evolution and Libertarianism v. Statism
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy