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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) LIbertarianism and Vegetarianism (Read 195 times)
SnarkySack
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LIbertarianism and Vegetarianism
Jun 12th, 2018 at 9:23am
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Skychief made an interesting point in his claim that chickens have a natural right to defend themselves.  My first reaction was to think that animals have no rights that humans are bound to honor.  But then I remembered that I have often argued that the right to self-defense is manifest in the fact that most animals are equipped with some form of either passive defense such as coloration, shells, speed, burrowing instinct, or active defense such as teeth, claws, and more unusual abilities such as poison or spray. 

This apparently deliberate provision of defensive mechanisms would seem to imply a "right" to use them.  At least there is no argument that I know of which would preclude such a right. 

So, what's a libertarian to do?  My personal bias is that animals with higher intellectual abilities should have their desires respected moreso than animals with lessor intellectual abilities.  So I would not eat monkeys or whales, I "should" avoid eating beef and pork, but fish and fowl are fair game, so to speak because while they can feel pain, I don't believe that they can be sad about being in pain.   Plants have no intellectual ability whatsoever so they would have no rights at all.

I guess I would say that we libertarians should assume rights as our default position until someone has a convincing argument against them.   On the other hand, banning meat eating would violate Sack's Razor so we must also respect the rights of those who disagree to eat animals all day long.

What say you, my fellow freedom lovers?

  

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SkyChief
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Re: LIbertarianism and Vegetarianism
Reply #1 - Jun 12th, 2018 at 12:09pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Jun 12th, 2018 at 9:23am:
 Plants have no intellectual ability whatsoever so they would have no rights at all.

Not true.   Many plants exercise their right to self defense:

• Cactus
• Blueberry bush
• Rose
• Stinging Nettles
• Poison Ivy
• Thunderwood (Poison Sumac)
• Shame plant
  et al....
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: LIbertarianism and Vegetarianism
Reply #2 - Jun 12th, 2018 at 12:15pm
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SkyChief wrote on Jun 12th, 2018 at 12:09pm:
Not true.   Many plants exercise their right to self defense:

• Cactus
• Blueberry bush
• Rose
• Stinging Nettles
• Poison Ivy
• Thunderwood (Poison Sumac)
• Shame plant
  et al....


I see your point, but my statement was that plants have no intellectual ability.

  

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SkyChief
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Re: LIbertarianism and Vegetarianism
Reply #3 - Jun 12th, 2018 at 12:33pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Jun 12th, 2018 at 12:15pm:
I see your point, but my statement was that plants have no intellectual ability.

Humans have evolved to be omnivores (*). We eat nuts, fruits, vegetables, and yes, MEAT.  We still have our canines - teeth which are for ripping flesh.

Libertarians should not feel ashamed about eating meat.  Humans have been meat-eaters for over 200,000 years.  No reason to stop now!   Smiley



(*https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2016/12/23/how-humans-evolved-to-be-natural-o...
  
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The Opposition
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Re: LIbertarianism and Vegetarianism
Reply #4 - Jun 12th, 2018 at 10:03pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Jun 12th, 2018 at 9:23am:
This apparently deliberate provision of defensive mechanisms would seem to imply a "right" to use them.  At least there is no argument that I know of which would preclude such a right. 


I have fists. Does that mean I can punch you?

In libertarian theory, animals do not own themselves. Their bodies are not their property.

You can only rightfully defend what is your property. And I emphasise the rightfully.
  

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Not taking Jeff seriously until he admits this is animal abuse (which he says should be illegal): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE-IT7_CaE4
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SnarkySack
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Re: LIbertarianism and Vegetarianism
Reply #5 - Jun 13th, 2018 at 8:42am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 12th, 2018 at 10:03pm:
I have fists. Does that mean I can punch you?


In self-defense, yes of course.

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In libertarian theory, animals do not own themselves. Their bodies are not their property.

You can only rightfully defend what is your property. And I emphasise the rightfully.


How is that libertarian theory?  Is it written in some book that is widely accepted as the standard for libertarian theory?


  

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Jeff
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Re: LIbertarianism and Vegetarianism
Reply #6 - Jun 13th, 2018 at 9:33am
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SnarkySack wrote on Jun 12th, 2018 at 12:15pm:
I see your point, but my statement was that plants have no intellectual ability.

Human babies aren't much for "intellectual ability" either... Eat them when they are young and tender!

If your tribe lives where the most easily available meat comes from monkeys, eat monkeys instead.

Animals have been granted the privilege of being treated humanely by humans.

You are free to believe that animals have a right not to be eaten, but don't expect to keep lions from eating monkeys or sharks from eating dolphins.
  
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Jeff
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Re: LIbertarianism and Vegetarianism
Reply #7 - Jun 13th, 2018 at 9:38am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 12th, 2018 at 10:03pm:
In libertarian theory, animals do not own themselves. Their bodies are not their property.

What makes you imagine this is exclusive to libertarian theories?
  
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The Opposition
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Re: LIbertarianism and Vegetarianism
Reply #8 - Jun 13th, 2018 at 10:27pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 8:42am:
In self-defense, yes of course.


No, it doesn't. If I don't have rights, then I obviously cannot morally retaliate.
  

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Not taking Jeff seriously until he admits this is animal abuse (which he says should be illegal): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE-IT7_CaE4
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SnarkySack
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Re: LIbertarianism and Vegetarianism
Reply #9 - Jun 14th, 2018 at 10:06am
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Jeff wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 9:33am:
Human babies aren't much for "intellectual ability" either... Eat them when they are young and tender!


A common misunderstanding among non-mind scientists.  Human babies have an incredible capacity for learning.  A language is incredibly complex, so adults struggle to learn them.  Babies and toddlers do it without any apparent effort.  Describing a person with intellectual disability as having "the mind of an eight year old" is a misunderstanding by laymen of what IQ tests measure.

Quote:
If your tribe lives where the most easily available meat comes from monkeys, eat monkeys instead.

Animals have been granted the privilege of being treated humanely by humans.

You are free to believe that animals have a right not to be eaten, but don't expect to keep lions from eating monkeys or sharks from eating dolphins.


Yes, very true.  I'm not advocating for any laws to protect animals rights.  I won't eat monkeys or dolphins, but enjoy your dolphin "fishing" and the big barbecue afterwards.  If a shark gets you first, I won't advocate for punishing the shark though. 
  

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