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The Opposition
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The Devil You Don't Know: Why People are Statists
Jun 14th, 2018 at 12:35am
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Most organisms only have a lot of interactions with their direct prey or predators.

Like it or not, the government doesn't prey on the worker. The average worker simply doesn't have enough income to steal to make it worth the government's while.

The government is a top predator. It preys on other predators. Someone who eats zebras isn't going to go after mice. It doesn't make energy-sense.

Most people are mice. They don't break any laws, so they never interact with the government.

However, these mice interact with businesses every day. It wouldn't be a stretch to say every moment of every day.

A worker drives to work in a car he bought at a dealership. He goes to work at a business and then stops for dinner on the way home at another business. He walks into the house he pays a mortgage to the bank for, and falls asleep in the bed he's paying a mortgage on to Rent-a-Center.

When people get screwed, they get screwed by the ones they're interacting with, not the ones they're not interacting with.

When people suffer injustice, they suffer it, much more likely, at the hands of the people they have interactions with every day. If they don't break any laws, the gestapo simply isn't coming to pull them from their beds at night.

People love the government because it's the devil they don't know, and it is that because it's not their direct predator. They suffer so much injustice in their daily lives, that they don't stop to wonder about how wrong it is that the people eating them also get eaten sometimes.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: The Devil You Don't Know: Why People are Statists
Reply #1 - Jun 14th, 2018 at 12:50am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 12:35am:
Most organisms only have a lot of interactions with their direct prey or predators.

Like it or not, the government doesn't prey on the worker. The average worker simply doesn't have enough income to steal to make it worth the government's while.


When the government forces a worker to hand over a percentage of his earnings (income tax), it is acting as a predator. The government uses its power/authority to take the worker's money.  If the worker refuses, he can be certain the government will harm him.

It's no different if a mugger displays a handgun and demands that the worker give him his wallet. If the worker refuses, he can be certain the mugger will harm him.

In both cases, the worker was a victim of a robbery.

Both the government and the mugger act as predators.
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Devil You Don't Know: Why People are Statists
Reply #2 - Jun 14th, 2018 at 8:19am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 12:35am:
Most organisms only have a lot of interactions with their direct prey or predators.

Like it or not, the government doesn't prey on the worker. The average worker simply doesn't have enough income to steal to make it worth the government's while.

The government is a top predator. It preys on other predators. Someone who eats zebras isn't going to go after mice. It doesn't make energy-sense.

Most people are mice. They don't break any laws, so they never interact with the government.

However, these mice interact with businesses every day. It wouldn't be a stretch to say every moment of every day.

A worker drives to work in a car he bought at a dealership. He goes to work at a business and then stops for dinner on the way home at another business. He walks into the house he pays a mortgage to the bank for, and falls asleep in the bed he's paying a mortgage on to Rent-a-Center.

When people get screwed, they get screwed by the ones they're interacting with, not the ones they're not interacting with.

When people suffer injustice, they suffer it, much more likely, at the hands of the people they have interactions with every day. If they don't break any laws, the gestapo simply isn't coming to pull them from their beds at night.

People love the government because it's the devil they don't know, and it is that because it's not their direct predator. They suffer so much injustice in their daily lives, that they don't stop to wonder about how wrong it is that the people eating them also get eaten sometimes.
Some people are "statists" because they see they can obtain power and wealth by being in charge of the state or cronies of those in charge.

Of the remainder of the population, only people who never grew up and aren't willing to take responsibility for themselves want the state to take care of them.

And BTW, as the Chief said, statist governments always prey on the productive, simply because the unproductive don't have anything the government can take.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: The Devil You Don't Know: Why People are Statists
Reply #3 - Jun 14th, 2018 at 9:50am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 12:35am:
Most organisms only have a lot of interactions with their direct prey or predators.

Like it or not, the government doesn't prey on the worker. The average worker simply doesn't have enough income to steal to make it worth the government's while.

The government is a top predator. It preys on other predators. Someone who eats zebras isn't going to go after mice. It doesn't make energy-sense.

Most people are mice. They don't break any laws, so they never interact with the government.

However, these mice interact with businesses every day. It wouldn't be a stretch to say every moment of every day.

A worker drives to work in a car he bought at a dealership. He goes to work at a business and then stops for dinner on the way home at another business. He walks into the house he pays a mortgage to the bank for, and falls asleep in the bed he's paying a mortgage on to Rent-a-Center.

When people get screwed, they get screwed by the ones they're interacting with, not the ones they're not interacting with.

When people suffer injustice, they suffer it, much more likely, at the hands of the people they have interactions with every day. If they don't break any laws, the gestapo simply isn't coming to pull them from their beds at night.

People love the government because it's the devil they don't know, and it is that because it's not their direct predator. They suffer so much injustice in their daily lives, that they don't stop to wonder about how wrong it is that the people eating them also get eaten sometimes.


A lot of truth in that.  I agree about the workers if by workers you mean low-paid workers.  They actually get money "back" on their income taxes in the form of "refundable tax credits."  Of course, their state and local governments takes a bite when they buy things, register their car, get ticketed for window tint, etc. 

Your food chain analogy is good.  What that worker doesn't realize is that when government taxes the large corporations, those corporations have to take bigger bites out of their prey which is the workers themselves.  So they are paid less by Mickey D's who must keep up with huge taxes and are charged more by BK who must keep up with huge taxes.  The corporate execs certainly do  not suffer when taxes are raised, but they might be prompted to automate the worker out of his job.

  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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Jeff
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Re: The Devil You Don't Know: Why People are Statists
Reply #4 - Jun 14th, 2018 at 1:54pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 9:50am:
Your food chain analogy is good.  What that worker doesn't realize is that when government taxes the large corporations, those corporations have to take bigger bites out of their prey which is the workers themselves.  So they are paid less by Mickey D's who must keep up with huge taxes and are charged more by BK who must keep up with huge taxes.  The corporate execs certainly do  not suffer when taxes are raised, but they might be prompted to automate the worker out of his job.

Raising taxes has different effects on different businesses, just like it has different effects on "workers" (and BTW corporate executives work too, sometimes harder than any of the "workers").

Some businesses will raise prices, some will try to make their businesses more efficient (which can be done in many ways, including cutting staff or automating or outsourcing or finding better suppliers; Some will cut wages and benefits (and also salaries and benefits). Some will stop paying dividends to shareholders or pay fewer dividends, some might relocate to a state with lower taxes...)

What is known is that taxes distort the economy, certainly the way our governments levy most of their taxes, and the more they distort the economy, the less well it functions.

When individuals are making decisions on how much to work or not work to try to avoid taxes and businesses are making business decisions in order to avoid taxes, they are not making sound economic decisions such as result in efficient economies, and that's just one way high taxes distort and cripple economies...
  
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The Opposition
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Re: The Devil You Don't Know: Why People are Statists
Reply #5 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 12:40pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 9:50am:
Your food chain analogy is good.  What that worker doesn't realize is that when government taxes the large corporations, those corporations have to take bigger bites out of their prey which is the workers themselves.  So they are paid less by Mickey D's who must keep up with huge taxes and are charged more by BK who must keep up with huge taxes.


This requires the null state (freedom) to show us employers refusing to take available bites out of the workers for no reason.

Even if this is somehow true in economics when it would never be in Nature (not discounting that) peoples' brains aren't wired to see it this way.

People are wired not to like things that predate them (a good example would be a rat, eating their grain stores) and to be sympathetic to, and want to help, the things that eat their predators (cat domestication).

If you really think freedom is better for all, there should be some way to demonstrate that to the average worker.

I have always favoured controlled tests to see which systems are better. I think it would be well worth it to take a high-crime area, split it into five or six equal pie slices, and try different policies.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: The Devil You Don't Know: Why People are Statists
Reply #6 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:11pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 12:40pm:
This requires the null state (freedom) to show us employers refusing to take available bites out of the workers for no reason.

Even if this is somehow true in economics...
It's not true.

You need money, I need to have some work accomplished, so we make a deal that benefits us both.

That's the real economic relationship between employers and employees in a free economy.
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Devil You Don't Know: Why People are Statists
Reply #7 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 2:14pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 12:40pm:
If you really think freedom is better for all, there should be some way to demonstrate that to the average worker.

Show them the life of an average worker in an unfree economy.

The experimentation has been done. North Korea v. South Korea.
  
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RubyHypatia
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Re: The Devil You Don't Know: Why People are Statists
Reply #8 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 5:45pm
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Yep, tax the big guys and the little guys will end up paying for it.  Higher prices, fewer jobs, less investment which leads to less innovation.  The rich will still be rich, but the poor will be worse off, they'll stay poor.  But then, that's what the left wants.  It keeps the poor dependent on the government, and voting against those who are fiscally conservative.
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Devil You Don't Know: Why People are Statists
Reply #9 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 6:24pm
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RubyHypatia wrote on Jun 16th, 2018 at 5:45pm:
Yep, tax the big guys and the little guys will end up paying for it.  Higher prices, fewer jobs, less investment which leads to less innovation.  The rich will still be rich, but the poor will be worse off, they'll stay poor.  But then, that's what the left wants.  It keeps the poor dependent on the government, and voting against those who are fiscally conservative.
Yes, and the root cause is a government that is too large and too powerful that justifies itself by a deliberate misinterpretation of the law.

They propose that the U.S. Constitution created a mercantile system of government with the power to control the entire economy.
  
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