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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Libertarian Rights? Bricks or Bubbles (Read 1291 times)
The Opposition
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Libertarian Rights? Bricks or Bubbles
Jun 23rd, 2018 at 2:38am
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SkyChief wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 5:57pm:
Lemme put it this way:

The smaller the population, the better.  The more acreage per person, the better. 

In confined/high-density areas, such as inner cities, naturally there's more chance of one person encroaching on the rights of another, even though no malice was intended.

Barking dogs would be a classic example of this.  That's why most densely populated cities have barking dog ordinances.  Highly anti-libertarian, but very necessary.


This is a post that rang true to me because I've always pictured libertarians as wanting more rights than everyone else.



I'm somewhat wrong in my mental picture, but I'm also somewhat right.

Libertarians do want great big bubbles of rights in which to do whatever they want, but they're not thinking directly about crushing the rights of others. They fantasise that they can have these rights bubbles without encroaching on others, when the truth is that there just isn't enough space for that.

We all have to live together.

The Statist is for smaller rights bubbles of a different shape. They want them to be tiny and cubey. The corners of those cubes represent where violations of libertarian rights become acceptable for the good of the many. For example, not allowing people to have constantly barking dogs, disallowing drunk driving, or saying chickens are a menace dangerous or noisy enough to ban.

Your corners encroach a little on my ideal rights bubble, but I get corners too, when your freedom gets so out-of-control that I have a hard time getting through my day-to-day life.

For example, I might have a hard time driving home from work without an accident if the other drivers were allowed to be drunk. And since no one would insure them for any price they could afford (because they've had seventeen accidents before, while drunk) and since they shouldn't be required to buy insurance, and since they drive great big SUVs and wouldn't be able to pay for my compact car getting totaled, I'd have a hard time driving to work the next day, too.

I sacrifice my ideal freedom, and you sacrifice yours, so we can all live together. That's called fairness, and like it or not, it only happens in Statism.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Libertarian Rights? Bricks or Bubbles
Reply #1 - Jun 23rd, 2018 at 7:00am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 23rd, 2018 at 2:38am:
I sacrifice my ideal freedom, and you sacrifice yours, so we can all live together. That's called fairness, and like it or not, it only happens in Statism.
Ha ha.

Autocrats have very different ideas of "fairness" than do libertarians.

Libertarians believe equality under the law means no one has to sacrifice their freedom, but everybody is required to respect the rights of others. That's fair.

Your cartoon is wrong. Libertarians believe it's wrong to trample the rights of others. That's you in the bubble lizard, and all of humanity being trampled by your rules.
  
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RubyHypatia
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Re: Libertarian Rights? Bricks or Bubbles
Reply #2 - Jun 23rd, 2018 at 8:23am
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The cartoon is a lie.  Our rights stop where other people's rights begin.
  
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Re: Libertarian Rights? Bricks or Bubbles
Reply #3 - Jun 23rd, 2018 at 12:11pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 23rd, 2018 at 2:38am:
This is a post that rang true to me because I've always pictured libertarians as wanting more rights than everyone else.

http://oi68.tinypic.com/2jbtdz5.jpg

I'm somewhat wrong in my mental picture, but I'm also somewhat right.

Libertarians do want great big bubbles of rights in which to do whatever they want, but they're not thinking directly about crushing the rights of others. They fantasise that they can have these rights bubbles without encroaching on others, when the truth is that there just isn't enough space for that.

We all have to live together.

The Statist is for smaller rights bubbles of a different shape. They want them to be tiny and cubey. The corners of those cubes represent where violations of libertarian rights become acceptable for the good of the many. For example, not allowing people to have constantly barking dogs, disallowing drunk driving, or saying chickens are a menace dangerous or noisy enough to ban.

Your corners encroach a little on my ideal rights bubble, but I get corners too, when your freedom gets so out-of-control that I have a hard time getting through my day-to-day life.

For example, I might have a hard time driving home from work without an accident if the other drivers were allowed to be drunk. And since no one would insure them for any price they could afford (because they've had seventeen accidents before, while drunk) and since they shouldn't be required to buy insurance, and since they drive great big SUVs and wouldn't be able to pay for my compact car getting totaled, I'd have a hard time driving to work the next day, too.

I sacrifice my ideal freedom, and you sacrifice yours, so we can all live together. That's called fairness, and like it or not, it only happens in Statism.


Elementary truths. But the pseudo-libertarian is far, far removed from being able to accept that simple logic. It's US style capitalism that's done such a complete job of ensuring that the system that enriches them at everybody else's expense is kept safe. Socially responsible capitalism is to be rejected as the way forward.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Libertarian Rights? Bricks or Bubbles
Reply #4 - Jun 23rd, 2018 at 2:04pm
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RubyHypatia wrote on Jun 23rd, 2018 at 8:23am:
The cartoon is a lie.  Our rights stop where other people's rights begin.


You have that conception. You're not intending that your rights should create the type of inequality the cartoon depicts.

It's not malicious, but the facts are that not everybody can have those bubbles. They're too large and they end up imposing on others whether it's intended or not. You can't have fairness and libertarianism.

Crystallas wrote on Dec 27th, 2017 at 11:05pm:
Egalitarianism and libertarianism are not fully compatible, as established in Rothbard's ERAN writings. So if you are trying to suggest that the rules change pending the situation, then no sh**, duh. That is the point. Because one nuisance is not equal in all circumstances, which is more why the NAP does an incredible job of defining what is just and unjust.


For example, the right to own a gun is absolute because rights, and the right to own a chicken is not absolute, again because rights, since the chicken could potentially give our precious rights-demanding gun-toter a disease.

A Statist would say neither, and people don't exist who would say both.

Libertarians are forced to define some people out of having rights, because they know their rights are so expansive that they become unworkable if everyone has them.

Jeff wrote on Feb 24th, 2018 at 7:49am:
You have no more rights than an animal, because your understanding of rights is at the level of a predatory animal. You are a trained tiger, not killing and eating it's trainer because it has learned it will be punished and/or rewarded for acting as if it actually respected the rights of it's trainer, which it doesn't. Like you, a trained tiger can't understand and internalize that others have rights, so it has only animal rights itself.


merkelstan wrote on Feb 28th, 2017 at 11:15pm:
Rothbard's criteria makes more sense, because not only does the entity have to demonstrate conscious thought, it needs to understand the concept of rights and demand them for itself.

Amusingly, The Opposition would fail that test.  I still can't get-over what a mental trainwreck his (her?) "concept" of rights was.


I'm perfectly happy without all these expansive libertarian rights, though. I wouldn't want something that imposes on others so much.

I wouldn't want to be someone who justifies the dangerous things they want with rights, but the dangerous things I want are not covered by rights.

SkyChief wrote on Dec 1st, 2017 at 1:26pm:
The reason(s) for owning a gun is quite different than the reason to own a tiger or a chicken.   I'm saddened to be labeled a rabid, selfish, maniac.

There is only one absolute right that each and every person on the planet has:   self-defense.    All living things have a right to self-defense.  Tigers have it - even chickens have it.  (If you've ever witnessed a cockfight, you have seen self-defense of chickens)

If government were to ban guns, it would take away our means of self-defense, and that would be immoral.   If government were to ban (ownership of) tigers, no rights were violated - it is not immoral.

Libertarianism is based on self-ownership of the individual. It means a person's wealth and property belongs to him/her  -  not the government.

You accept some degree of risk getting out of bed.  A little more risk once you leave the house. Risk goes up considerably when you drive your car.   Life is full of risks.  Don't worry if I'm carrying my gun.  If you don't physically attack me, I promise not to shoot (at) you.   Scout's honor.


I'm not the one in the bubble. The rest of you are. I dare anyone to find one of my posts where I suggest that my desire is for people to be treated so inequally.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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RubyHypatia
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Re: Libertarian Rights? Bricks or Bubbles
Reply #5 - Jun 23rd, 2018 at 3:56pm
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You have that conception. You're not intending that your rights should create the type of inequality the cartoon depicts.

It's not malicious, but the facts are that not everybody can have those bubbles. They're too large and they end up imposing on others whether it's intended or not. You can't have fairness and libertarianism.


Then tell me how my natural rights, which the govenment is supposed to protect, in any way harms others?
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Libertarian Rights? Bricks or Bubbles
Reply #6 - Jun 23rd, 2018 at 5:03pm
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RubyHypatia wrote on Jun 23rd, 2018 at 3:56pm:
Then tell me how my natural rights, which the govenment is supposed to protect, in any way harms others?


Do you think you have a natural right to own a gun?
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Libertarian Rights? Bricks or Bubbles
Reply #7 - Jun 23rd, 2018 at 6:44pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 23rd, 2018 at 2:04pm:
For example, the right to own a gun is absolute because rights, and the right to own a chicken is not absolute, again because rights, since the chicken could potentially give our precious rights-demanding gun-toter a disease.

Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
  
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Re: Libertarian Rights? Bricks or Bubbles
Reply #8 - Jun 23rd, 2018 at 6:48pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 23rd, 2018 at 5:03pm:
Do you think you have a natural right to own a gun?
The Right of self defense is what that relates to.

If you believe I have a right to defend myself, you must accept whatever means I decide to use, because I have the best knowledge of what I can accomplish with various means... With only my fists as a weapon, I'm nearly defenseless. Embarrassed
  
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RubyHypatia
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Re: Libertarian Rights? Bricks or Bubbles
Reply #9 - Jun 23rd, 2018 at 7:26pm
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Do you think you have a natural right to own a gun?


Yep.  And how does that infringe on other people's rights?
  
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