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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Libertarian Rights? Bricks or Bubbles (Read 4829 times)
Little Big Man
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Re: Libertarian Rights? Bricks or Bubbles
Reply #30 - Jun 25th, 2018 at 9:23am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 23rd, 2018 at 2:38am:
I sacrifice my ideal freedom, and you sacrifice yours, so we can all live together. That's called fairness, and like it or not, it only happens in Statism.


Fairness happens only in the imagined ideal version of Statism, which statists claim to be striving for.  They claim that we are only failing to obtain the dreamed of fairness because their ideas of how a fair statist society should be ordered are not being fully implemented.

The most extreme example is a communist society in which the Leaders claim to want perfect equality and fairness, but lament that they must (reluctantly of course) take on the burden of power and the perks that accompany power in order to stave off the reactionary forces that constantly threaten a return to the bad old days of unfairness. 

In a less intrusive statist society, such as the U.S., statists maintain power by promising certain groups more "fairness," which always translates into, "more for you, less for others."  More freedom/power/wealth/whatever, to be delivered in the name of fairness.  In exchange those groups provide the votes/contributions/advocacy/campaign work needed to keep the promisers in power.

In a libertarian system, results will be unequal because the abilities of individuals are unequal. 


  

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RubyHypatia
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Re: Libertarian Rights? Bricks or Bubbles
Reply #31 - Jun 25th, 2018 at 9:36am
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In a libertarian system, results will be unequal because the abilities of individuals are unequal.


Yep.  In highschool literature class, I read a book about a dystopian society where the unintelligent were put in positions of power while the intelligent had menial labor jobs.  The main charater was a smart guy who was attractive, and he was assigned to mate with homely women.  I wish I remembered the title of that book.
  
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Little Big Man
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Re: Libertarian Rights? Bricks or Bubbles
Reply #32 - Jun 25th, 2018 at 9:44am
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RubyHypatia wrote on Jun 25th, 2018 at 9:36am:


Yep.  In highschool literature class, I read a book about a dystopian society where the unintelligent were put in positions of power while the intelligent had menial labor jobs.  The main charater was a smart guy who was attractive, and he was assigned to mate with homely women.  I wish I remembered the title of that book.


It sounds like "Harrison Bergeron," a Kurt Vonnegut novel:

In the year 2081, the 211th, 212th, and 213th amendments to the Constitution dictate that all Americans are fully equal and not allowed to be smarter, better-looking, or more physically able than anyone else. The Handicapper General's agents enforce the equality laws, forcing citizens to wear "handicaps": masks for those who are too beautiful, loud radios that disrupt thoughts inside the ears of intelligent people, and heavy weights for the strong or athletic.

One April, 14-year-old Harrison Bergeron, an intelligent and athletic teenager, is taken away from his parents, George and Hazel Bergeron, by the government. They are barely aware of the tragedy, as Hazel has "average" intelligence (a euphemism for stupidity), and George has a handicap radio installed by the government to regulate his above-average intelligence.


Unusually anti-government for an ardent socialist like Vonnegut.

  

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SicklersDink
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Re: Libertarian Rights? Bricks or Bubbles
Reply #33 - Jun 25th, 2018 at 12:33pm
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RubyHypatia wrote on Jun 24th, 2018 at 10:49pm:
Dogs are domesticated, tigers are wild.  You can't compare the two.  There's a great deal of benefit to having a dog.  What do tigers give you?  Try to outlaw dogs because 20-30 people are killed by them each year.  See what happens.   


I like your moderated and sensible approach. It's sorely needed on this forum and it's sorely needed in order that libertarianism can move forward and be accepted by a decent number of people.

Of course tigers, guns, and dogs are all very different!

But let me expand on the topic of dogs a little. If dogs kill 20-30 people a year, as you suggest, then perhaps a closer look at the particular dogs is required. Do those killer dogs resemble tigers in any way? Are they mostly vicious dogs of one or two particular breeds that have been bred in the past to be killers. Or in fact, more like tigers?

Common sense and a will to remain sensible are always open as ways forward for the libertarian. Are the people of this forum keeping that in mind or are they attempting to destroy every sane and sensible effort to move forward and build on libertarianism?
  
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SicklersDink
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Re: Libertarian Rights? Bricks or Bubbles
Reply #34 - Jun 25th, 2018 at 12:40pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Jun 25th, 2018 at 9:23am:
Fairness happens only in the imagined ideal version of Statism, which statists claim to be striving for.  They claim that we are only failing to obtain the dreamed of fairness because their ideas of how a fair statist society should be ordered are not being fully implemented.

The most extreme example is a communist society in which the Leaders claim to want perfect equality and fairness, but lament that they must (reluctantly of course) take on the burden of power and the perks that accompany power in order to stave off the reactionary forces that constantly threaten a return to the bad old days of unfairness. 

In a less intrusive statist society, such as the U.S., statists maintain power by promising certain groups more "fairness," which always translates into, "more for you, less for others."  More freedom/power/wealth/whatever, to be delivered in the name of fairness.  In exchange those groups provide the votes/contributions/advocacy/campaign work needed to keep the promisers in power.

In a libertarian system, results will be unequal because the abilities of individuals are unequal. 




Always taking the issues to the extreme! Because you are an extremist.

In the real world it's not a choice of communism or US style capitalism. You now know that very well of course because it's evident in the world around you.

Do I need to tell you again that the happiest countries in the world are capitalist countries that practice socially responsibility for the people?

The truth isn't going to go away burnsred. And the untenable situation you've placed yourself in by not being allowed to answer to the truth, isn't helping your cause.

Maybe some other libertarian will help you out?

Have you been able to come to terms with universal health care and the Norwegian prison system yet? How about social security? Don't rush yourself, the world continues to spin out of control and in favour of the 'red' hordes!
  
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RubyHypatia
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Re: Libertarian Rights? Bricks or Bubbles
Reply #35 - Jun 25th, 2018 at 1:39pm
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Dink, your life must suck for you to engage in so much trolling.
  
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RubyHypatia
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Re: Libertarian Rights? Bricks or Bubbles
Reply #36 - Jun 25th, 2018 at 1:42pm
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SnarkySack, I'll have to check that novel out to see if it's the one I read 35 years ago.
  
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SicklersDink
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Re: Libertarian Rights? Bricks or Bubbles
Reply #37 - Jun 25th, 2018 at 1:48pm
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RubyHypatia wrote on Jun 25th, 2018 at 1:39pm:
Dink, your life must suck for you to engage in so much trolling.


Well Ruby, as you must know, sucking is something near and dear to my heart. But also keep in mind that what I do is closely 'connected' to what the boss decides to do.

Talk to him if you have any notion of taking the idea any further. I'm with you baby!  Wink
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Libertarian Rights? Bricks or Bubbles
Reply #38 - Jun 25th, 2018 at 3:51pm
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RubyHypatia wrote on Jun 25th, 2018 at 8:58am:
People domesticated dogs, Opp, because dogs served a useful purpose.  Tigers have no useful purpose, nor can they be domesticated.  Big difference.  Dogs will never be outlawed because of the companionship and services they give.  There are police dogs, drug sniffing dogs, assistance dogs, bomb sniffing dogs, hunting dogs, etc.  Dogs save way more lives than they take.  Tigers have only taken lives.  I have nothing against tigers, I'm an animal lover and do care about their species, but don't think they should be pets.


And you're correct. In libertarian theory, libertarians make that decision because libertarians are the ones who interpret rights.

In Statism, what libertarians think doesn't matter because there would be no rights. It wouldn't matter what you think a tiger is or is not good for. Fairness would win the day, and if you get to present a 1% risk to my life, I would get to present a 1% risk to yours. The government would be king, but below them, everyone else would be equal.

In libertarianism, rights make it so there's always a good reason for a libertarian to have what they want, even if it risks others, but no one gets to risk them. It's morally correct - it's the only morally correct - but it's also unfair because I don't get to go through your house and decide what possessions you have that risk me and take them away if they don't serve a purpose.

You want your guns no matter how many lives they take, because rights, but the moment a slight risk is presented to you, that violates rights. No other philosophy has this degree of unfairness.

Little Big Man wrote on Jun 25th, 2018 at 9:23am:
Fairness happens only in the imagined ideal version of Statism,


That's correct, but I'm comparing ideal Statism to ideal libertarianism.

If you want to compare failed systems, we can compare the USSR to Somalia. I know where I'd rather live.

Ideal libertarianism has the sort of unfairness depicted in the cartoon built into the philosophy. You get to risk me, because rights, and I don't get to risk you, because rights.

If you can't see how it's unfair that I can't have a chicken because it might give the precious gun-toters a disease when guns kill tens of thousands of people annually, then I can't help you.

I'm admitting ideal libertarianism is moral. I'm saying it's also so horribly unfair that it's plain to see why less than 1% of people believe in it.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Libertarian Rights? Bricks or Bubbles
Reply #39 - Jun 25th, 2018 at 4:41pm
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RubyHypatia wrote on Jun 25th, 2018 at 9:36am:


Yep.  In highschool literature class, I read a book about a dystopian society where the unintelligent were put in positions of power while the intelligent had menial labor jobs.  The main charater was a smart guy who was attractive, and he was assigned to mate with homely women.  I wish I remembered the title of that book.
I'm glad you don't.
  

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