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Snarky Sack
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The "Freeloader Problem" with Voluntary Taxation
Jun 27th, 2018 at 9:09pm
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In a libertarian system, which means that no money is taken by force ever, all government services which are wanted, needed, essential, or what have you, are always fully funded.  Because by definition, if the people do not fully fund a service, that service is not wanted, needed or essential.  Any argument to the contrary rests on the premise that people don't know what's good for them and therefore their money must be taken by force by people wiser than they.

"Voluntary taxation," is an oxymoron, of course.  What is meant by that is a government funded by fee-for-service and voluntary contributions.  Toll roads are an excellent example.  They have long operated under the same marketing plan as many software companies use:  a free basic version, such as city streets, funded by fees for premium services like tollways and toll bridges.

But everything cannot be fee at point of delivery.  Some of government will have to be funded by people who have no immediate need but are willing to pay to maintain services that will or may be needed in the future.  In a system like that you will always have freeloaders.  So how does libertarianism solve that problem?  It doesn't.  Freeloading will happen.

But freeloading under freedom will be a small fraction of the amount of freeloading our current forcible taxation system.  Our system encourages more people to be freeloaders with the goal of requiring more taxes.  The harder the statist system "has to" tax us to keep up with entitlements, the less opportunity we have to be successful and no longer need government. 

The current low unemployment figures are an anathema to statists regardless of what letters they have in parenthesis after their names.  They want us to suffer, because only if we suffer will we be willing to give up more rights in order to have government take care of us.

  

"Taxes are morally justified theft" - Jeff
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The Opposition
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Re: The "Freeloader Problem" with Voluntary Taxation
Reply #1 - Jun 27th, 2018 at 11:16pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Jun 27th, 2018 at 9:09pm:
In a libertarian system, which means that no money is taken by force ever, all government services which are wanted, needed, essential, or what have you, are always fully funded.  Because by definition, if the people do not fully fund a service, that service is not wanted, needed or essential.  Any argument to the contrary rests on the premise that people don't know what's good for them and therefore their money must be taken by force by people wiser than they.


Wiser, no way. The government wants everyone to pay for roads because everyone uses roads.

Clever little shits that people are, no one will volunteer to pay, because someone else will pay. It's about gaining advantage, and getting out more than you're putting in. What they really want is comparative advantage over their fellow man - they want to get more than he does, and pay less for it.

Left to its own devices - left to the free market - this comparative advantage seeking gets so out of hand that everyone is spending 90% of their resources just to spitefully disadvantage the other guy.

Or we just have government force money out of everyone to pay for roads and keep the advantage seeking to a minimum, practically avoiding the game altogether.

Snarky Sack wrote on Jun 27th, 2018 at 9:09pm:
Our system encourages more people to be freeloaders with the goal of requiring more taxes.


It does, and unfortunately no one will be taken to task for it.

Snarky Sack wrote on Jun 27th, 2018 at 9:09pm:
They want us to suffer, because only if we suffer will we be willing to give up more rights in order to have government take care of us.


I only suffer because other people have rights.

If no one had rights, I wouldn't suffer at all. I don't care if I have money or not. I don't care if I have less, and in fact I often think I have too much stuff, and that I could live leaner. What I really want is to have a family, which always seems to be easier in less capitalist places.

Furthermore, I already have no rights, so I'd much rather live among others who don't have any, either.

merkelstan wrote on Feb 28th, 2017 at 11:15pm:
Rothbard's criteria makes more sense, because not only does the entity have to demonstrate conscious thought, it needs to understand the concept of rights and demand them for itself.

Amusingly, The Opposition would fail that test.  I still can't get-over what a mental trainwreck his (her?) "concept" of rights was.


Jeff wrote on Feb 24th, 2018 at 7:49am:
You have no more rights than an animal, because your understanding of rights is at the level of a predatory animal.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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Jeff
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Re: The "Freeloader Problem" with Voluntary Taxation
Reply #2 - Jun 28th, 2018 at 9:21am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Jun 27th, 2018 at 9:09pm:
But freeloading under freedom will be a small fraction of the amount of freeloading our current forcible taxation system.
Right, Our current tax "system" follows neither the Constitutional rule of apportionment for Direct taxes nor the rule of uniformity for Indirect taxes.

By means of the 16th Amendment deception, our tax "system" became progressive, and that's where the freeloading comes from.

BTW, I disagree with your unsupportable assertion that freeloading will be less if taxation is voluntary.
  
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Re: The "Freeloader Problem" with Voluntary Taxation
Reply #3 - Jun 28th, 2018 at 9:23am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Jun 27th, 2018 at 9:09pm:
The current low unemployment figures are an anathema to statists regardless of what letters they have in parenthesis after their names. 
http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/unemployment-charts
  
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Re: The "Freeloader Problem" with Voluntary Taxation
Reply #4 - Jun 28th, 2018 at 1:45pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Jun 27th, 2018 at 9:09pm:
In a libertarian system, which means that no money is taken by force ever, all government services which are wanted, needed, essential, or what have you, are always fully funded.  Because by definition, if the people do not fully fund a service, that service is not wanted, needed or essential.  Any argument to the contrary rests on the premise that people don't know what's good for them and therefore their money must be taken by force by people wiser than they.


As you are suggesting, in never-neverland.

Quote:
"Voluntary taxation," is an oxymoron, of course.  What is meant by that is a government funded by fee-for-service and voluntary contributions.  Toll roads are an excellent example.  They have long operated under the same marketing plan as many software companies use:  a free basic version, such as city streets, funded by fees for premium services like tollways and toll bridges.


Good argument to support toll booths on every street corner! We're off to see the wizard, the wonderful wizard of Oz!

Quote:
But everything cannot be fee at point of delivery.  Some of government will have to be funded by people who have no immediate need but are willing to pay to maintain services that will or may be needed in the future.  In a system like that you will always have freeloaders.  So how does libertarianism solve that problem?  It doesn't.  Freeloading will happen.


And basically, everything remains the same as it is!

Quote:
But freeloading under freedom will be a small fraction of the amount of freeloading our current forcible taxation system.  Our system encourages more people to be freeloaders with the goal of requiring more taxes.  The harder the statist system "has to" tax us to keep up with entitlements, the less opportunity we have to be successful and no longer need government. 


So try libertarianism! Doesn't everybody already agree that it can work for a large country? Duhhhhhh!

Quote:
The current low unemployment figures are an anathema to statists regardless of what letters they have in parenthesis after their names.  They want us to suffer, because only if we suffer will we be willing to give up more rights in order to have government take care of us.



Whoever the 'they' is, they might just want you to suffer? Stranger things are happening in the US these days.

You need a 'socially responsible government' obviously. Check out governments in the happiest countries in the world! Let me know if you need the names of those countries o.k?

O.k. boss, it's your turn now.
  
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Re: The "Freeloader Problem" with Voluntary Taxation
Reply #5 - Jun 28th, 2018 at 4:53pm
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As you are suggesting, in never-neverland.


Good argument to support toll booths on every street corner! We're off to see the wizard, the wonderful wizard of Oz!


And basically, everything remains the same as it is!


So try libertarianism! Doesn't everybody already agree that it can work for a large country? Duhhhhhh!


Whoever the 'they' is, they might just want you to suffer? Stranger things are happening in the US these days.

You need a 'socially responsible government' obviously. Check out governments in the happiest countries in the world! Let me know if you need the names of those countries o.k?

O.k. boss, it's your turn now.
Don't you have any beliefs or ideas other that that everyone is wrong and America must be destroyed and that you'd like to rape Ruby and Deidre (whoever she is?).
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: The "Freeloader Problem" with Voluntary Taxation
Reply #6 - Jun 28th, 2018 at 5:00pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 27th, 2018 at 11:16pm:
Wiser, no way. The government wants everyone to pay for roads because everyone uses roads.

Clever little shits that people are, no one will volunteer to pay, because someone else will pay. It's about gaining advantage, and getting out more than you're putting in.

Left to its own devices - left to the free market - this comparative advantage seeking gets so out of hand that everyone is spending 90% of their resources just to spitefully disadvantage the other guy.

What they really want is comparative advantage over their fellow man - they want to get more than he does, and pay less for it. 





Yes, that happens, but much more so under forced taxation than for organizations that seek voluntary payment and donations.  Churches, the Red Cross, The United Way and countless smaller local charities, who use no force whatsover operate off of voluntary donations.  They often thrive and prosper and pay six and nearly seven-figure salaries to their executives. 

Goodwill Industries and many smaller thrift store organizations have an absolutely brilliant method of obtaining merchandise.  They ask people to avoid throwing out unwanted items and to bring them directly to the stores instead.  They sell those items to people who voluntarily pay for them, often because they cannot easily afford new items.  They provide jobs for people who are difficult to employ and also use the money for other projects that help the poor. 

Absurdly, some "watchdog" groups have criticized the six figure salaries of the executives who perform these services using not a penny of forced money. 

The one thing Goodwill should be criticized for is lobbying to ban donation boxes by smaller thrift store organizations.  I fault the system that allows such foolishness.  Take away the state's power to regulate something that so obviously needs no regulation and that won't happen.

That is charity work, which we have been told since the New Deal, government is better at than ordinary people.

I hope I don't have to tell you how much better the free market is at ensuring that people are not able to freeload.  Except perhaps in the case of using free versions of software instead of the fee-required advance versions.  But since the company wants to do this as a form of offering samples in hopes of sales, that as no more freeloading than watching television and not buying the sponsors' products.


Quote:
Or we just have government force money out of everyone to pay for roads and keep the advantage seeking to a minimum, practically avoiding the game altogether.


Government is about nothing more than advantage seeking.  The ability of some to gain advantage over others through government is about nothing more than government's willingness to use force to help them gain that advantage.

  

"Taxes are morally justified theft" - Jeff
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Snarky Sack
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Re: The "Freeloader Problem" with Voluntary Taxation
Reply #7 - Jun 28th, 2018 at 5:06pm
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Jeff wrote on Jun 28th, 2018 at 9:23am:


Can you briefly tell me what information that link will provide?
  

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Jeff
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Re: The "Freeloader Problem" with Voluntary Taxation
Reply #8 - Jun 28th, 2018 at 5:09pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Jun 28th, 2018 at 5:06pm:
Can you briefly tell me what information that link will provide?
The fact that real unemployment, as it was defined by some Federal Bureaucracy in 1980 is about 22%.
  
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Re: The "Freeloader Problem" with Voluntary Taxation
Reply #9 - Jun 28th, 2018 at 5:16pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Jun 28th, 2018 at 5:00pm:
Government is about nothing more than advantage seeking.  The ability of some to gain advantage over others through government is about nothing more than government's willingness to use force to help them gain that advantage.

Right, like Venezuela or modern China or the current U.S. government.

That's exactly where all this "progressive" theory and "progressive" radical action has gotten us.

America was designed to prevent that sort of thing.

"Progressives" copulated  it up and are (as usual) trying to blame liberty.

But, anyway, good government is about protections of life and liberty and property with no discrimination under equally applied laws.
  
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