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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The "Freeloader Problem" with Voluntary Taxation (Read 1306 times)
SicklersDink
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Re: The "Freeloader Problem" with Voluntary Taxation
Reply #80 - Jul 6th, 2018 at 12:13pm
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How's voluntary taxation workin out so far?
  
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Jeff
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Re: The "Freeloader Problem" with Voluntary Taxation
Reply #81 - Jul 6th, 2018 at 4:45pm
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How's voluntary taxation workin out so far?
Where?

Edit: Did you ever learn the meaning of "apportioned"?
  
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The Opposition
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Re: The "Freeloader Problem" with Voluntary Taxation
Reply #82 - Jul 7th, 2018 at 1:04am
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SkyChief wrote on Jul 6th, 2018 at 11:23am:
I did.  It's called the Guest Visa Program.  It's a plan to give immigrants a means of legally entering the US without all the hassles of trying to get asylum status or citizenship status, which typically can take years.

The highly-streamlined Guest Visa process should not take more than 15 minutes from the time the immigrant enters the Guest Visa office and the time they walk out with a shiny, new Guest Visa card.


And I've admitted it would work wonders. Just like your voter exams would work wonders.

By "work wonders" I mean vastly improve the lots of the vast majority of people. I would even say the people banned from voting under your voter exams would be better off.

But when something's wrong, it's wrong. You admit property owners own their property and that their rights should be respected. Well, I want Juan the illegal immigrant on my property and he doesn't want to get a guest visa.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: The "Freeloader Problem" with Voluntary Taxation
Reply #83 - Jul 7th, 2018 at 8:26am
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The Opposition wrote on Jul 7th, 2018 at 1:04am:
Well, I want Juan the illegal immigrant on my property and he doesn't want to get a guest visa.
You don't believe the citizens of a nation have any property rights in their country.

I think most Americans disagree with you, and the history in the courts, whether you agree with it's reasoning or not, has created a long standing and pretty consistent precedent that makes your position pretty untenable.

http://hrlibrary.umn.edu/immigrationlaw/chapter2.html

It doesn't have anything to do with taxation...

  
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SkyChief
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Re: The "Freeloader Problem" with Voluntary Taxation
Reply #84 - Jul 7th, 2018 at 11:23am
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The Opposition wrote on Jul 7th, 2018 at 1:04am:
But when something's wrong, it's wrong. You admit property owners own their property and that their rights should be respected. Well, I want Juan the illegal immigrant on my property and he doesn't want to get a guest visa.

The problem is, Juan will eventually leave your property and trespass on someone else's property who doesn't "want" him to. 

Would you be willing to take full responsibility for Juan's movement after he leaves your property?

Would you be willing to take full responsibility for any crimes that Juan may commit after he leaves your property?
  
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SicklersDink
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Re: The "Freeloader Problem" with Voluntary Taxation
Reply #85 - Jul 7th, 2018 at 11:33am
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SkyChief wrote on Jul 7th, 2018 at 11:23am:
The problem is, Juan will eventually leave your property and trespass on someone else's property who doesn't "want" him to. 

Would you be willing to take full responsibility for Juan's movement after he leaves your property?

Would you be willing to take full responsibility for any crimes that Juan may commit after he leaves your property?


You can entertain the notion of your guest visa chief, and everybody can joke about it and humour you, but when you get into racism then  it's not as much of a joke anymore.

You 'know' how you get drawn down to resorting to racism to make your point Chief. You need to try to stop doing that. After all, your guest visa is still only a joke.  Embarrassed
  
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The Opposition
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Re: The "Freeloader Problem" with Voluntary Taxation
Reply #86 - Jul 7th, 2018 at 2:42pm
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SkyChief wrote on Jul 7th, 2018 at 11:23am:
The problem is, Juan will eventually leave your property and trespass on someone else's property who doesn't "want" him to. 


Then he should be punished.

SkyChief wrote on Jul 7th, 2018 at 11:23am:
Would you be willing to take full responsibility for Juan's movement after he leaves your property?


No, why should I? If he trespasses, he should be punished, like everyone else.

SkyChief wrote on Jul 7th, 2018 at 11:23am:
Would you be willing to take full responsibility for any crimes that Juan may commit after he leaves your property?


Because why? Because I employed him?

You know that thing I was talking about where I see every perspective at once? Well here's where you might have a case:

Let's say I not only employ illegal immigrants but bus them in. Now of course, crime is going to go up wherever my factory is. The pure libertarian thing is to simply punish them if they commit crimes.

But libertarianism wouldn't be fun if it wasn't for the advantage of the rich. If you're rich, and you have enough money for the best lawyers who can spin the law as they please and punish me even though I did not violate the NAP, take me to civil court and say I'm responsible for the murder of your relatives. I'll have to pay damages because it's true.

Jeff wrote on Jul 7th, 2018 at 8:26am:
You don't believe the citizens of a nation have any property rights in their country.


Of course I do. I'm the only one in the thread who is actually arguing for property rights.

Jeff wrote on Jul 7th, 2018 at 8:26am:
I think most Americans disagree with you, and the history in the courts, whether you agree with it's reasoning or not, has created a long standing and pretty consistent precedent that makes your position pretty untenable.


Can I use that argument? The courts created precedent therefore it's right? Because I think you'd call me on it if I did something this foolish.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: The "Freeloader Problem" with Voluntary Taxation
Reply #87 - Jul 7th, 2018 at 3:05pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jul 7th, 2018 at 2:42pm:
Of course I do. I'm the only one in the thread who is actually arguing for property rights.


Can I use that argument? The courts created precedent therefore it's right? Because I think you'd call me on it if I did something this foolish.
Property rights in a nation are not the same thing as property rights of individuals to their own real or personal property. What I am saying is that the property rights of citizens in their country, in this case the U.S.A., allow them to give the government they created to govern their country the power to decide who will be allowed to come here.

We are generally stuck with longstanding court precedents, although they can be overturned.

I don't think the basis of the longstanding precedents regarding the power to control immigration is correct.

They are based on the idea that the government is sovereign, and I don't believe that is true in the U.S.

Our government has been granted certain powers that all sovereign nations have always had, like the power to declare war and levy taxes, but such grants of limited "sovereign" powers don't change our government from a servant to a Sovereign.

Nevertheless, I think the result, that Congress has the power to control immigration is correct, and that it would be correctly based on the property rights that citizens have in our nation as a created institution.

We the People created the United States of America, and that makes it ours.

Maybe this is too subtle for you. Ask questions if you need to and I will try to answer.
  
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SicklersDink
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Re: The "Freeloader Problem" with Voluntary Taxation
Reply #88 - Jul 8th, 2018 at 12:30pm
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Property rights, blah, blah. You're both failing to see the forest for the trees.

The truth is, the people stooped to electing Trump as your president out of desperation. Along with another unsuitable candidate of course.

It's the very worst that can happen to a country. The people are desperate enough to stoop to the lowest lever in order to raise themselves up out of that desperation. And hence, they are ready to accept a president that will stoop to measures that have never been acceptable to a people of a democracy before.

It's the same old picture that has been demonstrated in recent history. To the German people, they were all good ideas at the time.

Craig Sickler is capable of understanding this. There may be a couple of others too, but their political ideology is still holding them back.

Maybe the Dual Guy eventually? Likely not because he appears to be hiding behind extreme right ideology. He outs himself every time he posts something.
  
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Jeff
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Re: The "Freeloader Problem" with Voluntary Taxation
Reply #89 - Jul 8th, 2018 at 5:06pm
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Property rights, blah, blah.
Go ahead, give us the entire list of "rights blah blah".


  
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