Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Abortion in the US.
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3]  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Abortion in the US. (Read 154 times)
goodbye
Libertarian Full Member
***
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 76
Joined: Jun 25th, 2018
Re: Abortion in the US.
Reply #20 - Jul 6th, 2018 at 3:43am
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Jul 5th, 2018 at 7:08am:
Do women have natural rights that men don't?



If a woman wants to have or not have an abortion is that her choice? A man can only decide or choose what he thinks the woman should do. I have lots of good ideas for other people to do.

Maybe the fetus has a right to life that supersedes the woman's right? Is that a religious or biological question?  At what point is the fetus an individual person with a right to life as a natural right. I think it is only a biological question.

When the fetus has the biological ability to survive separated from the mothers body and continue development to become an individual, self aware, conscious human being on their own is that when they should have the natural right to life?

Is consciousness and self awareness a biological attribute of the human being? At what point is the fetus conscious or self aware? I don't know if science knows the answer to that question. Of course the brain is biological tissue, but is the mind a biological function of matter? Maybe we are all just meat puppets and flatter ourselves that we are something more than biological matter.

is the severing of a fleshy component of the woman's body any different that when I go to the barber shop and get a hair cut? It might be if my cut hair could turn into another human being if I did not get it cut off. No religious nut cases  in Texas are trying to pass a law that I have to give my cut off hair a funeral service.

I have a lot of questions without answers about the abortion issue, but religion is not one of them. No one should have the right to force their religious superstitions onto anyone else. Men don't have the right to tell women or anyone else what they can do with their own body.

Is the fetus that can live separated physically from the mother an individual human person with rights? Does the human being begin at the moment of natural birth. (or Cesarean delivery) To late for abortion at that point unless we want to start discussing retroactive abortions.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 31470
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Abortion in the US.
Reply #21 - Jul 6th, 2018 at 7:21am
Print Post  
goodbye wrote on Jul 6th, 2018 at 3:43am:
If a woman wants to have or not have an abortion is that her choice? A man can only decide or choose what he thinks the woman should do. I have lots of good ideas for other people to do.

Maybe the fetus has a right to life that supersedes the woman's right? Is that a religious or biological question?  At what point is the fetus an individual person with a right to life as a natural right. I think it is only a biological question.

When the fetus has the biological ability to survive separated from the mothers body and continue development to become an individual, self aware, conscious human being on their own is that when they should have the natural right to life?

Is consciousness and self awareness a biological attribute of the human being? At what point is the fetus conscious or self aware? I don't know if science knows the answer to that question. Of course the brain is biological tissue, but is the mind a biological function of matter? Maybe we are all just meat puppets and flatter ourselves that we are something more than biological matter.

is the severing of a fleshy component of the woman's body any different that when I go to the barber shop and get a hair cut? It might be if my cut hair could turn into another human being if I did not get it cut off. No religious nut cases  in Texas are trying to pass a law that I have to give my cut off hair a funeral service.

I have a lot of questions without answers about the abortion issue, but religion is not one of them. No one should have the right to force their religious superstitions onto anyone else. Men don't have the right to tell women or anyone else what they can do with their own body.

Is the fetus that can live separated physically from the mother an individual human person with rights? Does the human being begin at the moment of natural birth. (or Cesarean delivery) To late for abortion at that point unless we want to start discussing retroactive abortions.
My instant point is that the act of conception requires both a woman and a man.

Why would the fetus, which was created jointly by two individuals, be the sole property of the woman alone, to dispose of or not without consideration of what the father might want?

Once a child is born, it seems to be recognized that both father and mother have rights and responsibilities regarding the child, I'm just proposing that those shared rights and responsibilities begin when the child is conceived... Why would they not, since both parents have an equally important role in the conception?

Edit: I'm not arguing against abortion, I'm just arguing, as I have on this forum in the past, that the decision to abort can only be made by both parents in agreement.

Would you have the decision to abort be called a natural right of the father alone?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ahhell
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 1977
Joined: Sep 21st, 2016
Re: Abortion in the US.
Reply #22 - Jul 6th, 2018 at 11:23am
Print Post  
The rights of the man and women should quite naturally be in proportion to the effort they put into conceiving and gestating the child.  Being generous, it gives the man about .01% of the rights of the women.

An analogy might be investors.  If you own 99% of a company and I own 1% would that give me equal say over how to dispose of the companies assets?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SicklersDink
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 862
Location: British Columbia
Joined: Jun 21st, 2018
Re: Abortion in the US.
Reply #23 - Jul 6th, 2018 at 12:11pm
Print Post  
ahhell wrote on Jul 6th, 2018 at 11:23am:
The rights of the man and women should quite naturally be in proportion to the effort they put into conceiving and gestating the child.  Being generous, it gives the man about .01% of the rights of the women.

An analogy might be investors.  If you own 99% of a company and I own 1% would that give me equal say over how to dispose of the companies assets?


As I suspected, nobody is taking into consideration that a socially responsible position of preventing the need for a woman to seek an abortion.

This is where goveernment could be playing a useful part, and does in other countries.

The abortion question has nothing in common with deciding according to the % of shares owned by the mother or father.

Obviously p-l's have no interest in social responsibility. They want to push their ridiculous ideas for themselves, in isolation from the rest of humanity.

This is a thread I can follow along with and help moderate. Maybe there's one real libertarian that will start to see the light. Oppo could be the last real hope. Maybe Tom?
  

I was Don G. but Craig owns me now.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 31470
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Abortion in the US.
Reply #24 - Jul 6th, 2018 at 1:03pm
Print Post  
ahhell wrote on Jul 6th, 2018 at 11:23am:
The rights of the man and women should quite naturally be in proportion to the effort they put into conceiving and gestating the child.  Being generous, it gives the man about .01% of the rights of the women.

An analogy might be investors.  If you own 99% of a company and I own 1% would that give me equal say over how to dispose of the companies assets?
The conceiving part takes about equal effort I'd say, and the gestation part being all on the woman is just they way it works. In general, males who father children took/take care of the pregnant women, but that's not relevant in most cases where abortions take place.

At least you admit the father has an interest that would give him some rights in the matter.

What I think the father has, if he wants it, is a child.

Proportional rights are fine when it comes to contracts and ownership of property, but I don't see that as being an analog in the case of a fetus that was created with complete equality between the man and woman and has created something that neither of them can claim to own.

I'm not imagining that many men, when faced with a pregnant woman they didn't intend to get pregnant would be anything but happy to have it aborted, but I think their agreement to the abortion should be required... It's not as if the 'partnership' can be terminated and the 'assets' distributed according to the investments of the partners.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
goodbye
Libertarian Full Member
***
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 76
Joined: Jun 25th, 2018
Re: Abortion in the US.
Reply #25 - Jul 6th, 2018 at 1:06pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Jul 6th, 2018 at 7:21am:
My instant point is that the act of conception requires both a woman and a man.

Why would the fetus, which was created jointly by two individuals, be the sole property of the woman alone,



When does a new individual life begin, a person who would have the inalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

At the point of conception or at the moment of birth?  Maybe at the beginning of the third Trimester (26 weeks) when there is a general consensus among scientists that a fetus feels pain and can survive outside the womb.

The constitution defines a citizen as someone who is born in America. Abortion is performed prior to birth so the person is not yet a citizen.

A father's parental rights do not begin until there is a person or human being in existence to be a parent of. Prior to the existence of a human being a fetus is just biological tissue composed of the woman's bodily tissue and is her property, just like your hair or fingernails you cut off and throw away.

The point where a human life begins is not known. It is a religious issue for some people. It is a biological issue for others. It is not known for sure as a scientific fact. The issue for the libertarian would be that the personal right to life be recognized for all human persons, based on facts, not religious faith imposed by others.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 31470
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Abortion in the US.
Reply #26 - Jul 6th, 2018 at 1:12pm
Print Post  
SicklersDink wrote on Jul 6th, 2018 at 12:11pm:
As I suspected, nobody is taking into consideration that a socially responsible position of preventing the need for a woman to seek an abortion.


This is a thread I can follow along with and help moderate.

I think ahhell's main complaint is that the woman has to carry the baby in her womb and give birth to it, which is something many women just don't want to do. What help will a "socially responsible" government be in that case?

If you want a discussion as you claimed, and for which you started this thread, keep discussing, you are a horrible moderator.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 31470
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Abortion in the US.
Reply #27 - Jul 6th, 2018 at 5:13pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Jul 6th, 2018 at 1:12pm:
I think ahhell's main complaint is that the woman has to carry the baby in her womb and give birth to it, which is something many women just don't want to do. What help will a "socially responsible" government be in that case?

If you want a discussion as you claimed, and for which you started this thread, keep discussing, you are a horrible moderator.
OK then, I'll moderate-

"Mr. Dork, respectfully, if you have no answer, we can't continue the discussion you wanted to have... Please, proceed..."
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SicklersDink
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 862
Location: British Columbia
Joined: Jun 21st, 2018
Re: Abortion in the US.
Reply #28 - Jul 6th, 2018 at 5:41pm
Print Post  
goodbye wrote on Jul 6th, 2018 at 1:06pm:
When does a new individual life begin, a person who would have the inalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?
.


No human being can give you the answer for that. You'll have to ask baby jesus on Sunday.

Then come back and settle the whole debate.

If it doesn't work for you then we can always go back to looking at socially responsible answers.
  

I was Don G. but Craig owns me now.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 31470
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Abortion in the US.
Reply #29 - Jul 6th, 2018 at 7:16pm
Print Post  
SicklersDink wrote on Jul 6th, 2018 at 5:41pm:
No human being can give you the answer for that. You'll have to ask baby jesus on Sunday.

Then come back and settle the whole debate.

If it doesn't work for you then we can always go back to looking at socially responsible answers.

What answers are those Dork?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3] 
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Abortion in the US.
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy