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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Was the Sexual Revolution a Bad Thing? (Read 2043 times)
Jeff
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Re: Was the Sexual Revolution a Bad Thing?
Reply #90 - Jul 12th, 2018 at 7:58am
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RubyHypatia wrote on Jul 11th, 2018 at 6:33pm:
Prove women were behind men going on raids.  You really think the Vikings were raiding because their women demanded it?  You're just making stuff up.

I was talking about some of the native tribes of North America. You could read and learn about their customs and mores yourself.

It seems pretty likely that Viking women liked to have their men go raiding and bring back lots of plunder.

The simple fact that tribes regularly raided each other was encouragement enough for the women to demand war to punish the tribe that had just raided them.
  
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Re: Was the Sexual Revolution a Bad Thing?
Reply #91 - Jul 12th, 2018 at 8:06am
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RubyHypatia wrote on Jul 11th, 2018 at 6:39pm:
Women trying to go into politics, business, or higher education were met with great hostility because of patriarchy (supported by religion).  Patriarchy didn't allow women the FREEDOM to choose their own destinies.  And weird that you call yourself a, "libertarian" and are justifying it.
You compared it to Jim Crow laws Ruby, saying it was illegal. I pointed out that it was not illegal.

Being free to do something doesn't mean you automatically get the approval and support of the society you live in.

I wasn't approving of patriarchy, just giving my opinions on where it came from and why it was so common and why it persisted for so long.

In the real world, most men don't have the freedom to choose their own destinies either, they just have to do the best they can under the circumstances their society creates.

Imagining that the force of government can or should be used to change societies to suit the views of some people as to what a good society should be results in tyrannies. Equality under the law is about the best that can be done, and equality under the law creates free societies, which may or may not think women should stay home and raise children.
  
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Re: Was the Sexual Revolution a Bad Thing?
Reply #92 - Jul 12th, 2018 at 8:16am
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RubyHypatia wrote on Jul 11th, 2018 at 6:45pm:
The agreement of a lot of men led to the oppression of women.  Still does in other parts of the world today.


Equality is a natural right.  So if men are allowed to vote, women should be allowed to vote.  Women contribute just as much to humanity as men do, so why should women be second class citizens?
Right, but the agreement of a lot of American white men gave you the vote.

Equality is not a natural right. Why do you think  it is? Equality under the law is a human created concept, because laws are human created concepts.

If equality and voting were natural rights, babies would have the vote.

Women contribute more to humanity than men do Ruby, and they are equal to men as U.S. Citizens.

If your claim that women vote for socialism is true, then giving women the vote has led to the social "welfare" redistributionist state in the U.S. that has caused huge problems for children and made generations of people dependent on government. That would make it clearly follow that allowing women to vote was detrimental to the cause of human liberty... And you call yourself a libertarian!
  
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Re: Was the Sexual Revolution a Bad Thing?
Reply #93 - Jul 12th, 2018 at 8:25am
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I was talking about some of the native tribes of North America. You could read and learn about their customs and mores yourself.

It seems pretty likely that Viking women liked to have their men go raiding and bring back lots of plunder.

The simple fact that tribes regularly raided each other was encouragement enough for the women to demand war to punish the tribe that had just raided them.


Oh, so you read it somewhere.  Still not buying that women were behind men's aggression.  Sure, women would be happy when their men returned home safely, and with stuff, but most women wouldn't be happy about their loved ones going off to endanger their lives.  Women accepted it because they had no other choice.
  
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Re: Was the Sexual Revolution a Bad Thing?
Reply #94 - Jul 12th, 2018 at 8:33am
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You compared it to Jim Crow laws Ruby, saying it was illegal. I pointed out that it was not illegal.

Being free to do something doesn't mean you automatically get the approval and support of the society you live in.

I wasn't approving of patriarchy, just giving my opinions on where it came from and why it was so common and why it persisted for so long.

In the real world, most men don't have the freedom to choose their own destinies either, they just have to do the best they can under the circumstances their society creates.

Imagining that the force of government can or should be used to change societies to suit the views of some people as to what a good society should be results in tyrannies. Equality under the law is about the best that can be done, and equality under the law creates free societies, which may or may not think women should stay home and raise children.


A society where you are not free to choose your own destiny because you will be met with hostility if you choose something other than what a rigid gender role requires isn't a free society.  Yes, men also had limited options, but it wasn't because of their gender, it was because of their economic status.  There is no justification for keeping an entire gender (or race) disempowered.
  
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Re: Was the Sexual Revolution a Bad Thing?
Reply #95 - Jul 12th, 2018 at 8:44am
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RubyHypatia wrote on Jul 12th, 2018 at 8:25am:
Oh, so you read it somewhere.  Still not buying that women were behind men's aggression.  Sure, women would be happy when their men returned home safely, and with stuff, but most women wouldn't be happy about their loved ones going off to endanger their lives.  Women accepted it because they had no other choice.
Believe that if you want to, but all women everywhere at all times have not been pacifist anti-war goody-two-shoes. Their opinions were listened to in tribal councils and in bed, and sometimes they were Queens, and they sometimes sent their men off to war.
  
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Re: Was the Sexual Revolution a Bad Thing?
Reply #96 - Jul 12th, 2018 at 8:52am
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RubyHypatia wrote on Jul 12th, 2018 at 8:33am:
A society where you are not free to choose your own destiny because you will be met with hostility if you choose something other than what a rigid gender role requires isn't a free society.  Yes, men also had limited options, but it wasn't because of their gender, it was because of their economic status.  There is no justification for keeping an entire gender (or race) disempowered.
I wasn't justifying it Ruby, just trying to get you to see where patriarchy came from and why is was so common and persistent.

There is no ready overt justification for much of what societies do, but most societal mores and customs have roots in practical solutions to societal problems, like how to keep the tribe alive.

I don't know who you should blame because societies are slow to change their customs and mores, but I know you can't blame it entirely on men. Women are often more resistant to societal change than are men, probably because women are more worried about how some untested change will affect their children.
  
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Re: Was the Sexual Revolution a Bad Thing?
Reply #97 - Jul 12th, 2018 at 8:53am
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Right, but the agreement of a lot of American white men gave you the vote.

Equality is not a natural right. Why do you think  it is? Equality under the law is a human created concept, because laws are human created concepts.

If equality and voting were natural rights, babies would have the vote.

Women contribute more to humanity than men do Ruby, and they are equal to men as U.S. Citizens.


http://www.crf-usa.org/foundations-of-our-constitution/natural-rights.html

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Locke wrote that all individuals are equal in the sense that they are born with certain "inalienable" natural rights. That is, rights that are God-given and can never be taken or even given away. Among these fundamental natural rights, Locke said, are "life, liberty, and property."


This includes the liberty to engage in politics.  Men didn't give women their natural rights, they just stopped interfering with them.  I am grateful they stopped, but they shouldn't have been interfering with them in the first place.  BTW, men contribute just as much as women do.

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If your claim that women vote for socialism is true, then giving women the vote has led to the social "welfare" redistributionist state in the U.S. that has caused huge problems for children and made generations of people dependent on government. That would make it clearly follow that allowing women to vote was detrimental to the cause of human liberty... And you call yourself a libertarian!


Well then, by that same logic, men having the vote has been detrimental to human liberty.  It has led to wars and the taking of human lives, their most important freedom.
  
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RubyHypatia
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Re: Was the Sexual Revolution a Bad Thing?
Reply #98 - Jul 12th, 2018 at 8:57am
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Believe that if you want to, but all women everywhere at all times have not been pacifist anti-war goody-two-shoes. Their opinions were listened to in tribal councils and in bed, and sometimes they were Queens, and they sometimes sent their men off to war.


And there are men who promoted communism and socialism.  Does Karl Marx ring a bell?  How about Bernie Sanders?
  
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Re: Was the Sexual Revolution a Bad Thing?
Reply #99 - Jul 12th, 2018 at 9:01am
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RubyHypatia wrote on Jul 12th, 2018 at 8:53am:
http://www.crf-usa.org/foundations-of-our-constitution/natural-rights.html


This includes the liberty to engage in politics. 
Yes, general liberty and freedom of speech and conscience give everybody the right to participate in politics, and women did, even before they were allowed to vote-

http://time.com/4549800/jeannette-rankin-100/

Nevertheless, voting is not a natural right. No governments exist in nature. Governments are created things, and the humans who create them decide how the governments will operate, including who, if anybody, will be allowed to vote.
  
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