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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Case for Nationalist Libertarianism (Read 2071 times)
SicklersDink
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Re: The Case for Nationalist Libertarianism
Reply #10 - Jul 10th, 2018 at 12:17pm
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Andrew_Armao wrote on Jul 10th, 2018 at 6:53am:
Libertarians have, the best principles of any political platform. It hails back to the Roman Republic in its concepts for true Liberalism. Having a Liberal mindset, willing to listen to everyone, and let all arguements occur until the ones that are most true remain.


Welcome to the forum.  Most of this forum's members are here to make a joke of libertarianism so let's get on with it! We're in desperate need of some very serious ideas soon before the dozen of so viewers just give up on it altogether.

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Even then, developing inferior ideas and concepts, to their most perfect forms, to strengthen whatever issue it is focused on. This concept is lost to the Democrat Party. It has become a bastion of Marxism, but a dull version of it. At least Marx had a populist flavor!


Can you explain what you consider Marx's popular flavour. Are you talking about the flavour the people sampled being popular?

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This leaves Amercans going to the other strong party, the Republican Party. They are no great bastion of Liberality, they have only gained this perception from the abandonment of the Democrats!


Most libertarians around this forum are saying that both parties are corrupt and lost causes. You seem to be placing some hope in the Republican party. Are you placing some hope in Trump too? Personally, I think he's the closest the world has ever come to Hitler and his Nazism. I can explain in detail if you're interested.

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This leaves one other heir - The National Libertarian Party. The only problem that it has, is it lacks a spine. We talk all day for what we are opposed to. But the average American cannot see an overarching view, a sample, as it were, of what an America run by us would look like.


You say the libertarian party lacks a spine, then you go to another topic of average Americans not seeing. How are you saying that the party being spineless has something to do with Americans' lacking a view?

How does the libertarian party lack a spine? Are you suggesting they introduce their agenda on the media, in the papers, and hope the people accept it? What?

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I look back to the Roman Republic. Oh what great arts, what glory. The most brilliant of minds, philosophers, men delving into the deepest reaches of ourselves, helping understand, the earliest conceptions of who we are.


Can you provide some examples of that glory? Can you explain why we libertarians should try to emulate the Romans? Not being a Christian myself, i do see that they were at least on the right track with the Christians. continued later.

  
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SicklersDink
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Re: The Case for Nationalist Libertarianism
Reply #11 - Jul 10th, 2018 at 12:36pm
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continued-

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We can show Americans, what we are, and what we can become. Nationalism is something that every country was required to use in order to function. It was trying to have the best Trade Deals for your country. It was having Borders that were absolute. It also was putting your country in the most favorable position amongst others.

These policies were very much active during the Industrial Revolution, and with their repeal, ended it. We had Protective Tariffs in place in the 1800s with them being a political issue. They were used to fund the federal government and protect local business.

Significant Tariffs stayed in place until the implementation of the Income tax. With the new tax feeding the Federal Government, tariffs were no longer needed to fund it, so they were made into a laughing stock of their former selves. This fueled the growth of other economies since the days of Woodrow Wilson, some being China and Mexico. China in some years, have seen GDP growth as high as 10% and more in single years.


Mostly true.

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The more money that is in our economy, the more markets there are. Why are we building other peoples countries? Shouldn't the American aid his fellow countrymen alone? Is this the product of lobbyists for foreign powers?


Capitalism isn't concerned with whose country benefits. The object is to be free to earn more money. Socialism suggests that some restraints are placed on capitalists, as you seem to be suggesting. The restraint you're suggesting is being considerate of fellow Americans first. I don't think libertarianism has ever professed to wanting to do any of that.

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Tariffs are something that shouldn't just be a threat to a foreign power, it should be a necessity for a true American system. I see it immoral, to have Tariffs as low as 3%. What a betrayal of the American worker! In the name of giving him a cheaper TV, he got his job taken away.


And again friend, you're suggesting restraints on capitalism and freedom that is demanded by capitalism. Libertarianism has to be able to function 'within' a capitalist system. You seem to be suggesting socialist innovations and changes.

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This must be a foundational issue for us to push. We must be the party of The Rust Belt. America was built by factory work, and it can only be continuing forward. The only reason machines are doing the work locally in some cases is because the companies can't afford to compete with China and Mexico with human workers. This must change.


I agree in principle that America and Americans must change. Are you saying that American workers must become more productive and work for lower wages?

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It is our responsibility as governors of the nationstate to allow the environment of which economic growth is possible. We don't control the market, we are simply to allow it to exist. Who would we be as legislators, to impede the progression of the markets?


True of libertarianism. No restraints should be put on capitalism and the free market.

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The true power of America is shown through it's economy, and it has been hurting. We must answer the call that the Republicans and Democrats consciously ignore. We must reinstitute the tariffs. We must be the party of the American worker, and bring this country into a new age of prosperity.


Tariffs are an impediment to free trade and capitalism. This is why libertarianism is in favour of tearing down borders. That's a flaw in the libertarian agenda because it doesn't speak of limits. It leaves everybody guessing.

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Investing in higher technologies, looking to space, advancing infrastructure and architecture, eliminating 90% of entitlements. Teaching Pragmatism in schools, with it being an American creation! Picture schools teaching concepts of usable higher thought to youngsters and aspiring scholars! This is an America I believe in, and is what we can be, and must be, for the American voter.


I have quite a few problems with your ideas of how to get there. I've mentioned that it has to be done within capitalist limits, where you have suggested some changes to socialist policy.

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Forever Liberty!


Yes of course, but do you have a concept of equality and fraternity going along with that liberty?

I've heard you saying that you do when you've mentioned restraints on capitalism. And I'm not sure libertarians could subscribe to those ideas?
  
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The Opposition
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Re: The Case for Nationalist Libertarianism
Reply #12 - Jul 10th, 2018 at 12:53pm
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Andrew_Armao wrote on Jul 10th, 2018 at 6:53am:
Nationalism is something that every country was required to use in order to function. It was trying to have the best Trade Deals for your country. It was having Borders that were absolute. It also was putting your country in the most favorable position amongst others.


It is an unhappy truth that in order to actually have liberty, we must embrace illiberal policies like nationalism, but as you point out, it is necessary.

The first country to abandon nationalism will collapse. It no longer puts itself first. It enriches other countries over itself. It loses. It falls.

You can take two things from this.

First, you can conclude that liberty is desirable, so it is logical to embrace any policy that maximises liberty in practice, even if that policy is itself anti-liberty, like having borders.

Second, you can conclude that since liberty is not a universalisable goal, it is not a goal worth having. Not every end requires that we routinely act counter to that end philosophically in order to achieve as much of that end as possible.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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SicklersDink
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Re: The Case for Nationalist Libertarianism
Reply #13 - Jul 10th, 2018 at 1:27pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jul 10th, 2018 at 12:53pm:
It is an unhappy truth that in order to actually have liberty, we must embrace illiberal policies like nationalism, but as you point out, it is necessary.


Right on Oppo!

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The first country to abandon nationalism will collapse. It no longer puts itself first. It enriches other countries over itself. It loses. It falls.


Exactly!

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You can take two things from this.

First, you can conclude that liberty is desirable, so it is logical to embrace any policy that maximises liberty in practice, even if that policy is itself anti-liberty, like having borders.


Yes, that's libertarianism taken to s ridiculous extreme. It was only a matter of talking about it on this forum to be able to come to that conclusion. It was always just kneejerk libertarian extremist bullshit.

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Second, you can conclude that since liberty is not a universalisable goal, it is not a goal worth having. Not every end requires that we routinely act counter to that end philosophically in order to achieve as much of that end as possible.


Yes, more extremist libertarian nonsense being put down!

The answer is to include equality and fraternity which impose limits on the more outrageous claims of liberty. The three have to exist in the people's minds together for any of it to work.

Incidentally, this serves to find a solution to the guns and the gun violence problem.

libertarians might think of it as the difference  between positive and negative rights, but I don't see how that makes any sense?
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Case for Nationalist Libertarianism
Reply #14 - Jul 10th, 2018 at 2:37pm
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Andrew_Armao wrote on Jul 10th, 2018 at 9:03am:
The constitution is pretty definitive of what we stand for.


The direction of the country, is chosen by the majority of a Party, which is selected by the American people.
That sounds a long way of from preserving the Blessings of Liberty...

The idea that America should be led by the party in power is not what the Constitution says or implies... In fact that sounds like Communist China.

The ideal is that the government will protect everyone's life, liberty and property equally under laws that apply to everyone, and that that will allow individuals to make their own lives, choose their own directions and take the country in whatever direction it happens to go under the leadership of a bunch of free individuals whose only leadership is provided by their personal choices.

Leading America through government power to a dream of "greatness" is pure "progressive" boilerplate, nothing to do with libertarian theory or policy proposals.


  
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Jeff
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Re: The Case for Nationalist Libertarianism
Reply #15 - Jul 10th, 2018 at 2:39pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jul 10th, 2018 at 12:53pm:
It is an unhappy truth that in order to actually have liberty, we must embrace illiberal policies like nationalism, but as you point out, it is necessary.

Other than the need for a capable national defense and a government that is worthy of the respect of the majority of the people, nationalism is not something we need.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: The Case for Nationalist Libertarianism
Reply #16 - Jul 10th, 2018 at 2:54pm
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Jeff wrote on Jul 10th, 2018 at 2:39pm:
Other than the need for a capable national defense and a government that is worthy of the respect of the majority of the people, nationalism is not something we need.


You just admitted two points in which nationalism is necessary. You have a good example: It's probably a good idea to defend, militarily, one's own nation rather than its enemies.

If you don't think my examples are valid, fine - I don't need them. I don't know why you wouldn't think a nation needs to make trade deals that benefit itself rather than others, but I don't need that to be true for my case to be proven about illiberal policy being necessary to defend liberty.

It'd be weird if your philosophy was don't murder anyone, but in practice you actually had to murder a lot of people to keep your very philosophy afloat.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: The Case for Nationalist Libertarianism
Reply #17 - Jul 10th, 2018 at 3:07pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jul 10th, 2018 at 2:54pm:
You just admitted two points in which nationalism is necessary. You have a good example: It's probably a good idea to defend, militarily, one's own nation rather than its enemies.

If you don't think my examples are valid, fine - I don't need them. I don't know why you wouldn't think a nation needs to make trade deals that benefit itself rather than others...
Because it's well proven that letting the government (any government) interfere in free trade works less well than allowing individuals to make their own decisions on who to trade with...

And "trade deals" made by governments involve coercion and force... Certainly you have made it clear that you oppose that.
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Case for Nationalist Libertarianism
Reply #18 - Jul 10th, 2018 at 3:12pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jul 10th, 2018 at 2:54pm:
...but I don't need that to be true for my case to be proven about illiberal policy being necessary to defend liberty.

How many times have I admitted that national defense (as well as the establishment of police and courts and jails) require taxation? Or that taxation is essentially the forceful taking of people's hard earned money?

The trick is to keep such illiberal and necessary things to a minimum, so as to maximize individual liberty.

That's the whole idea behind our Constitution.
  
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SicklersDink
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Re: The Case for Nationalist Libertarianism
Reply #19 - Jul 10th, 2018 at 4:12pm
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Jeff wrote on Jul 10th, 2018 at 3:12pm:
How many times have I admitted that national defense (as well as the establishment of police and courts and jails) require taxation? Or that taxation is essentially the forceful taking of people's hard earned money?

The trick is to keep such illiberal and necessary things to a minimum, so as to maximize individual liberty.

That's the whole idea behind our Constitution.


Excellent! That's why I've chosen you as my boss to hang with!
Taxation is necessary. Finding socially responsible ways to keep it to a minimum is the goal.

Would a prison system like Norway's do that?
  
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