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Jeff
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Re: The Case for Nationalist Libertarianism
Reply #160 - Aug 3rd, 2018 at 7:38am
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The Opposition wrote on Aug 2nd, 2018 at 10:08pm:
Go back to where I explain at the very outset that every single one of you wants some exception to pure libertarian principle.

Anarchists don't, they want "pure" libertarianism.

  
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Jeff
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Re: The Case for Nationalist Libertarianism
Reply #161 - Aug 3rd, 2018 at 7:48am
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The Opposition wrote on Aug 2nd, 2018 at 10:08pm:
Any country that is not Nationalist will simply have its population replaced until it is Nationalist.


A Nationalist government will always punish criminals. A libertarian government will decriminalise everything until they live in Somalia.
A government designed to protect individual liberty and lives and property, to allow free people to create their own lives and societies within the nation will, by necessity, be required to preserve the nation so that it's laws and systems of protecting individual liberty will be preserved.

That doesn't make it a "nationalist" government, because it is not a government given any power to create a society or lead a nation into some sort of 'national goal'.

A Nationalist government often staffs itself with criminals, most obviously in the form of Secret Police which are seen as necessary to weed out those opposed to the 'national goals' that the government has decided on.

Libertarians will never decriminalize theft and assault and murder, and because they will always create strictly limited governments with no granted power to set or try to achieve 'national goals', there will be no need of political Secret Police and little opportunity for criminals to prosper by entering the government or trying to become cronies.
  
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Re: The Case for Nationalist Libertarianism
Reply #162 - Aug 3rd, 2018 at 7:58am
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SkyChief wrote on Aug 2nd, 2018 at 10:48pm:
In most cases, true.

I don't see any conflict with a government instituted to protect the liberty of the people who created that government from being selective about who is permitted to enter the country and become a citizen. Criminals and terrorists can certainly be excluded when possible, just as they can be locked up or executed.

Talk of a nations people being "replaced" is fundamentally nonsense. Every nations population is completely replaced in a fairly short period of time because people die and reproduce.

Worries that immigrants will take over and change our country are silly. New generations derived completely from the current population have always been involved in changing our country, and it was not worrisome or problematic as long as the institutions of our government were held to their Constitutional limits... But of course they were not. "Progressives" fundamentally changed the basis of our government by illegal means, because they wanted to fundamentally change America, so now, people worry that immigrants will all vote for socialism, because "progressives" illegally made socialism possible in America.

The problem is not immigrants, but the altered structure of our government that makes socialism possible.

http://www.speroforum.com/a/DIZZTBKYFP13/83758-Michael-Rectenwald-A-Maoistlike-r...


  
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Re: The Case for Nationalist Libertarianism
Reply #163 - Aug 3rd, 2018 at 8:02am
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On topic, Communist China has a very Nationalistic government. The government plans and sets goals and the people must follow, because the government believes it knows what's best for the Nation of China.

China, having a Nationalistic government, is concerned that the people of China be the right sorts of people-

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/ethnic-cleansing-makes-a...
  
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The Opposition
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Re: The Case for Nationalist Libertarianism
Reply #164 - Aug 5th, 2018 at 6:32pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 3rd, 2018 at 7:48am:
Libertarians will never decriminalize theft and assault and murder,


You will, in practice. When private security companies replace the police, and don't cover everyone, non-covered people will be effectively legal to steal from and assault.

You basically want to turn the world into public school, with the rich golden, and their rights protected, and everyone else effectively not having any. Without taxes, which you say are aggression, this is the way it has to work.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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Jeff
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Re: The Case for Nationalist Libertarianism
Reply #165 - Aug 5th, 2018 at 6:55pm
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The Opposition wrote on Aug 5th, 2018 at 6:32pm:
You will, in practice. When private security companies replace the police, and don't cover everyone, non-covered people will be effectively legal to steal from and assault.

You assume the absence of law? Or just a means of enforcing it?

Certainly your ideas are uncivilized, barbaric even.
  
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Re: The Case for Nationalist Libertarianism
Reply #166 - Aug 5th, 2018 at 6:56pm
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The Opposition wrote on Aug 5th, 2018 at 6:32pm:
You basically want to turn the world into public school, with the rich golden, and their rights protected, and everyone else effectively not having any. Without taxes, which you say are aggression, this is the way it has to work.
You're raving, imagining once again that libertarians are both anarchists and government cronies at one and the same time.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: The Case for Nationalist Libertarianism
Reply #167 - Aug 5th, 2018 at 10:13pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 5th, 2018 at 6:55pm:
You assume the absence of law? Or just a means of enforcing it?

Certainly your ideas are uncivilized, barbaric even.


When you say all taxes are aggression, you're following from libertarian principle. When I say all taxes are aggression, it's uncivilised.

Jeff wrote on Aug 5th, 2018 at 7:11am:
Taxes are always force because the threat of force is always behind taxation, otherwise taxes would be called donations.


How are you going to pay for the police without taxes, Crabshack?
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Re: The Case for Nationalist Libertarianism
Reply #168 - Aug 6th, 2018 at 7:33am
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The Opposition wrote on Aug 5th, 2018 at 10:13pm:
When you say all taxes are aggression, you're following from libertarian principle. When I say all taxes are aggression, it's uncivilised.


No, I said the absence of law is uncivilized.
  
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Re: The Case for Nationalist Libertarianism
Reply #169 - Aug 6th, 2018 at 7:37am
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The Opposition wrote on Aug 5th, 2018 at 10:13pm:
How are you going to pay for the police without taxes, Crabshack?
With tax money.

You can't seem to get the point that the ideals of libertarians can't exist as practical realities without realizing that the world and the people in it are imperfect. Taxation to provide police and courts and jails is necessary to allow people to be free in a civilized society. Taxes for police are a generally agreed upon "aggression", a concession made in order to protect people's lives and liberty and property from criminals.
  
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