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SkyChief
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Re: The Case for Nationalist Libertarianism
Reply #180 - Aug 10th, 2018 at 2:25pm
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The Opposition wrote on Aug 10th, 2018 at 2:11pm:
Stronger regulations are the libertarianism of the future? Hmm.

Dink has always displayed a profound misunderstanding of what libertarianism is all about.

I steered him towards the Green Party, which have (nearly) the same socialist agenda as Dink - Green Party advocates higher, progressive taxes on the wealthy, wealth redistribution, and government hand-outs to everyone  (Universal Basic Income).

But he pouted,  stomped his feet, and kicked over the chessboard..

He refuses to acknowledge that his socialist/collectivist views have virtually nothing in common with the libertarian agenda.

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Must I remind you again that I'm the libertarian and you are one of the fakers. 

*sigh*
  
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SicklersDink
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Re: The Case for Nationalist Libertarianism
Reply #181 - Aug 10th, 2018 at 2:44pm
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The Opposition wrote on Aug 10th, 2018 at 2:11pm:
Stronger regulations are the libertarianism of the future? Hmm.


The truth in that statement is that regulations which must remain in place when the LP takes over are going to be all strong regulations. The weak and meaningless will be eliminated.

That in no way says there will be less regulations, just some different regulations.

To understand completely we would have to deal with some specific regulation.

But the pseudo-libertarian is  always afraid to do that!  Embarrassed


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...then I am a Vulcan.

If Don is a libertarian, then I am a Vulcan.

This is not a childish statement. This is not a false statement. This is an if-then statement, and one which is absolutely true.


if~then. This doesn't even qualify as being above the level of your Vulcan fantasy.
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Case for Nationalist Libertarianism
Reply #182 - Aug 10th, 2018 at 5:19pm
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The truth in that statement is that regulations which must remain in place when the LP takes over are going to be all strong regulations. The weak and meaningless will be eliminated.

You're so transparent Thingy!

Scary too.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: The Case for Nationalist Libertarianism
Reply #183 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 9:14am
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SkyChief wrote on Aug 10th, 2018 at 2:25pm:
He refuses to acknowledge that his socialist/collectivist views have virtually nothing in common with the libertarian agenda.


No, they don't. But if he would sit down and shut up for a moment, just long enough for a single thought to pass through his brain, he would see that the libertarian agenda will bring about exactly the world he wants. Open borders alone will do that.

Libertarians qualify as useful idiots to people like Don.

He gets the result he wants, and libertarians get to engage in their brief fantasies that their ideology will last more than a moment if put into practice as stated.

The funny thing is that he's tipping over a chessboard whereupon his enemies have already checkmated themselves. He just has to wait two or three moves.

Quote:
if~then. This doesn't even qualify as being above the level of your Vulcan fantasy.


Thanks for looking that up! You are now slightly smarter.

Here's another one:

If you advocate actual libertarianism, then you will get leftism. You will actually get everything you want.

You think the people who flood in when you open the borders won't vote for your brand of social responsibility? Of course they will.

They'll also do what needs to be done to topple white privilege once and for all. You don't get the measures you need to eliminate white privilege completely because America still has a large white population. If you open the borders and destroy that, you can reasonably expect land and property redistribution, as well as lasting, permanent reparations.

All you have to do is advocate actual libertarianism because it represents a move in your favour.

You don't like that move - I get it. You don't think the rook should go there. You don't like that you're losing your knight. You don't get to advocate for the redistribution you want right away; you actually have to condemn it.

But it represents you getting a checkmate in two moves. And everything you want.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SicklersDink
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Re: The Case for Nationalist Libertarianism
Reply #184 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 12:40pm
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The Opposition wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 9:14am:
No, they don't. But if he would sit down and shut up for a moment, just long enough for a single thought to pass through his brain, he would see that the libertarian agenda will bring about exactly the world he wants. Open borders alone will do that.


I'll accept that at face value. I hope the devil isn't in the details. But we probably won't find out because nobody will allow a conversation that looks into the details.

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Libertarians qualify as useful idiots to people like Don.


There definitely is some idiocy. It's in the details again.

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He gets the result he wants, and libertarians get to engage in their brief fantasies that their ideology will last more than a moment if put into practice as stated.


What brief fantasies?

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The funny thing is that he's tipping over a chessboard whereupon his enemies have already checkmated themselves. He just has to wait two or three moves.


Some are capable of seeing the inevitable checkmate two or three moves ahead. But I can't play at that level. A genius could set up a board in order to demonstrate that.


Quote:
Thanks for looking that up! You are now slightly smarter.

Here's another one:

If you advocate actual libertarianism, then you will get leftism. You will actually get everything you want.


I like the idea but you would have to elaborate.

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You think the people who flood in when you open the borders won't vote for your brand of social responsibility? Of course they will.


Forget the Dem/Repub factor and think in terms of being a libertarian.

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They'll also do what needs to be done to topple white privilege once and for all. You don't get the measures you need to eliminate white privilege completely because America still has a large white population. If you open the borders and destroy that, you can reasonably expect land and property redistribution, as well as lasting, permanent reparations.


Interesting! Undue white privileges over and above others' privileges, need to be eliminated. That's a necessary step that any non-racist would understand and it wouldn't lead to property redistribution. It would only lead to equality and equal opportunity.

Be careful what you say. You're promoting a misunderstanding that's based on racist views. Let's always confine our thoughts to accepting that people are people and there are no other distinctions.

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All you have to do is advocate actual libertarianism because it represents a move in your favour.


I'll accept that on a trial basis at least until you provide some details on what you expect me to accept. If it's something far out such as elimination of income taxation then we'll be into the mud again. I trust you aren't that crazy extremist.

Quote:
You don't like that move - I get it. You don't think the rook should go there. You don't like that you're losing your knight. You don't get to advocate for the redistribution you want right away; you actually have to condemn it.


The chess game analogy doesn't make any sense to me. Ohter than castling and that doesn't work either.

Quote:
But it represents you getting a checkmate in two moves. And everything you want.


Bring it on. Let's get straigh to business and leave the chess board out of it.

You're suggesting socially responsible government would also be desirable libertarian government. I've always promoted that idea. The problem  has always been, the libertarians are afraid of the words, 'social responsibility'. They immediately try to make it out to be communism or socialism. That tells me a lot about their insecurities that are based on their politics. The chief's the best example. No income tax? Duhhh! He can't even look at the only possibility which would be tax reform.
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Case for Nationalist Libertarianism
Reply #185 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 12:45pm
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The Opposition wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 9:14am:
No, they don't. But if he would sit down and shut up for a moment, just long enough for a single thought to pass through his brain, he would see that the libertarian agenda will bring about exactly the world he wants. Open borders alone will do that.

Libertarians qualify as useful idiots to people like Don.

He gets the result he wants, and libertarians get to engage in their brief fantasies that their ideology will last more than a moment if put into practice as stated.

The funny thing is that he's tipping over a chessboard whereupon his enemies have already checkmated themselves. He just has to wait two or three moves.


Thanks for looking that up! You are now slightly smarter.

Here's another one:

If you advocate actual libertarianism, then you will get leftism. You will actually get everything you want.

You think the people who flood in when you open the borders won't vote for your brand of social responsibility? Of course they will.

They'll also do what needs to be done to topple white privilege once and for all. You don't get the measures you need to eliminate white privilege completely because America still has a large white population. If you open the borders and destroy that, you can reasonably expect land and property redistribution, as well as lasting, permanent reparations.

All you have to do is advocate actual libertarianism because it represents a move in your favour.

You don't like that move - I get it. You don't think the rook should go there. You don't like that you're losing your knight. You don't get to advocate for the redistribution you want right away; you actually have to condemn it.

But it represents you getting a checkmate in two moves. And everything you want.
Ideals like open borders come from acceptance that people have a right to travel freely, but there are limitations on that right because other people have rights too, which means I can post no trespassing signs on my property and you have to respect my right to do that, just as you should realize that citizens of even a very free country have a right to restrict who comes into their country. Open borders are something we can have when everybody in the world respects the rights of everyone else, just like people in small rural communities used to leave their keys in their cars and their homes unlocked, because they knew everybody in the community and knew they would respect their rights.

There are no worries about how anybody votes if you have a properly constructed government that is limited in what it can do. If for instance you give your government no power to redistribute wealth, it doesn't matter if a majority of voters vote for Representatives who promise to redistribute wealth, because they can't do it anyway.

It's a foundational idea of libertarian theories of government that limiting the government allows people to be free.
  
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SicklersDink
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Re: The Case for Nationalist Libertarianism
Reply #186 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 12:57pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 12:45pm:
Ideals like open borders come from acceptance that people have a right to travel freely, but there are limitations on that right because other people have rights too, which means I can post no trespassing signs on my property and you have to respect my right to do that, just as you should realize that citizens of even a very free country have a right to restrict who comes into their country. Open borders are something we can have when everybody in the world respects the rights of everyone else, just like people in small rural communities used to leave their keys in their cars and their homes unlocked, because they knew everybody in the community and knew they would respect their rights.


You're now on about a realistic approach that modifies the libertarian agenda. Actually, you always are on the important issues. I can even interpret your ideas on 'no redistribution of other people's money to be sane and reasonable.

The best thing to do on this forum would be to change the emphasis from 'disagreement' to 'agreement'.

[quoute]There are no worries about how anybody votes if you have a properly constructed government that is limited in what it can do. If for instance you give your government no power to redistribute wealth, it doesn't matter if a majority of voters vote for Representatives who promise to redistribute wealth, because they can't do it anyway. [/quote]

Good! On this forum the devil will be in the details. Not to suggest that with you yet.

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It's a foundational idea of libertarian theories of government that limiting the government allows people to be free.


no problem!
  
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SkyChief
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Re: The Case for Nationalist Libertarianism
Reply #187 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 1:00pm
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The chief's the best example. No income tax? Duhhh! He can't even look at the only possibility which would be tax reform.

Income Tax doesn't need to be reformed, and neither does libertarianism.

Libertarianism ain't broken, and don't need any fixin'.

Income Tax IS broken - beyond repair.  Just look at the 4000(+) pages of the US Tax Code. What a convoluted mess!

We need to drive a stake through its heart, load the carcass onto a spacecraft and send it into the sun.
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Case for Nationalist Libertarianism
Reply #188 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 1:10pm
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You're now on about a realistic approach that modifies the libertarian agenda.
The basic libertarian agenda is very broad, it's to find practical ways to allow the maximum number of people to have the maximum possible freedom in an imperfect world.

On policy details, libertarians often disagree, just like everyone else. Certainly you've noticed that there is a wide range of policy proposals, and much disagreement, even among authoritarians?

Libertarians are actually much more united and consistent in their thinking than are socialists...
  
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SicklersDink
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Re: The Case for Nationalist Libertarianism
Reply #189 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 1:18pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 1:10pm:
The basic libertarian agenda is very broad, it's to find practical ways to allow the maximum number of people to have the maximum possible freedom in an imperfect world.

On policy details, libertarians often disagree, just like everyone else. Certainly you've noticed that there is a wide range of policy proposals, and much disagreement, even among authoritarians?

Libertarians are actually much more united and consistent in their thinking than are socialists...


I don't disagree on the principals. (no sp. mistake) I guess that the cross section of libertarians on this board aren't demonstrating that.

So I would say that judging by the attitudes on this board, socialists are more consistent in their thinking. I'm making the comparison to the chief's dogma on income tax.

I'm not a promoter of socialism but I realize that socialism to you is different from socialism to me.

Canada's government is not socialist. I think that you say it is. Let's put that on the back burner for now.
  
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