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SkyChief
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Re: The Case for Nationalist Libertarianism
Reply #200 - Aug 12th, 2018 at 12:27pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 12th, 2018 at 6:46am:
What you could do is to learn about libertarians in a broad and historical sense, then try to grasp the continuity of thought and the common principles of the philosophy of human liberty.

He doesn't give a damn about continuity of thought and the common principles of the philosophy of human liberty. 

He wants to change the LP - a Party that opposes Income Tax - into the Green Party - a Party that embraces the Income Tax.

He's facing many years of frustration and disappointment, because that's never going to happen.

"The power to tax is the power to destroy." John Marshall
  
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SicklersDink
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Re: The Case for Nationalist Libertarianism
Reply #201 - Aug 12th, 2018 at 12:43pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 12th, 2018 at 6:46am:
What you could do is to learn about libertarians in a broad and historical sense, then try to grasp the continuity of thought and the common principles of the philosophy of human liberty.

Once you have a good idea what classical liberals thought and believed, and can see how foundational that is to modern libertarian thoughts and beliefs, you can make a pretty good judgement about either individuals or groups of people as to whether they are libertarians or something else.

Just keep in mind that their is a range of thought in libertarianism, just as there is in any system of thought and belief relating to humans and their societies and the forms of political economy they advance and adopt.


That which I don't need to learn is separating batshit crazy or impossibilities from reality. If you want to try to suggest you can teach me soomething about libertarianism I don't already know, start with that provision in mind.

My country provides me with all the freedoms that are actually possible to provide, in consideration of the fact that certain excessive freedoms are prohibitive because they would infringe on the freedoms of the whole.

The current big issue with the chief is income taxation and of course we are both aware of how it works and how it should work. There are lots of ideas out there for reforming income tax but none include eliminating it completely.

Let's start with you telling me what we actually disagree upon? The chief can't because he isn't even in the same sand box!
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Case for Nationalist Libertarianism
Reply #202 - Aug 12th, 2018 at 1:26pm
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My country provides me with all the freedoms that are actually possible to provide, in consideration of the fact that certain excessive freedoms are prohibitive because they would infringe on the freedoms of the whole.


Infringing on "... the freedom's of the whole" is not at all the same as infringing on the rights of others.

What sort of freedoms does "the whole" have anyway?
  
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The Opposition
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Re: The Case for Nationalist Libertarianism
Reply #203 - Aug 12th, 2018 at 1:59pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 12th, 2018 at 6:35am:
Here's how it works. The U.S.A. is a creation of the several states. The states are creations of the citizens of the states, so it all begins with the citizens, who created the governments and can alter and/or abolish them.

It's the American idea that the people are Sovereign, and it is written into the law through the mechanisms available to the people to alter their government as well as being clearly stated in the Constitution's preamble.

Part of the law that charters and empowers the government (the Constitution) grants the government the power to control immigration into the territory controlled by the government on behalf of the people, and they can do that because the people, who are actually Sovereign over the government and the territory it applies to says they can.

It is an assertion of ownership rights over the government and the territory over which is has been granted certain limited powers and certain duties and responsibilities.

I know you object that it is not ownership in the same sense that property is deeded to individuals or combinations of people, it is more like a legal trustee empowered to control access to territory consisting of the several states the D of C.

It might not be strictly technically correct to say the people of America "own" America, but we do own the Idea of America and we own our government, and we have the power to tell the government what to do and not do.


You can't tell the government to violate rights. Whatever power you have to do so is illegitimate.

Unplug your nasty little stub-ears and listen to the words coming off of my fingers.

Your house is yours. If you want to invite X over for tea, you get to. If you want to invite X over to work for you, and you pay him in the manner of a voluntary transaction, you get to.

If the government tries to stop you, they are violating your rights. Whatever bullshit reason they use (including lack of citizenship) is irrelevant. Your property. You decide. Not the government.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SicklersDink
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Re: The Case for Nationalist Libertarianism
Reply #204 - Aug 12th, 2018 at 2:12pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 12th, 2018 at 1:26pm:
Infringing on "... the freedom's of the whole" is not at all the same as infringing on the rights of others.

What sort of freedoms does "the whole" have anyway?


The rights of the whole is the same as the rights of others, in my opinion. If you differ on that then pursue it further.

Right now I think the lizard is trying to say something? He seems to want to make a point but then he makes it too garbled to be able to understand. Really weird personality flaw in that boy, politics aside.

How does this work for you? Scientology began with L. Ron Hubard and he was also the founder of Dianetics.

Dianetics teaches, among a lot of other nonsense, that many people's basic personal problems are the result of "repeated attempts at abortion by the mother"!

Yes! He elaborates with suggesting that an ice pick was the usual weapon of choice and that it is common that mothers wishing to abort would make numerous attempts of a dozen or more. And that the fetus would be aware of those attempts but had an ability to repair it's wounds.

Hence, my suggestion that Oppo and maybe therm are or have been adherents to the Scientology ideology?

See why I'm suspicious of Oppo and what motivates him?
  
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SkyChief
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Re: The Case for Nationalist Libertarianism
Reply #205 - Aug 12th, 2018 at 2:36pm
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There are lots of ideas out there for reforming income tax but none include eliminating it completely.

Not true.

There certainly ARE plans to eliminate Income Tax completely.   The most popular of these plans is the National Sales Tax.

"The individual and corporate income tax, the capital gains tax, and the estate and gift taxes would all be eliminated.."

https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/considering-national-sales-tax
  
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SicklersDink
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Re: The Case for Nationalist Libertarianism
Reply #206 - Aug 12th, 2018 at 2:41pm
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SkyChief wrote on Aug 12th, 2018 at 2:36pm:
Not true.

There certainly ARE plans to eliminate Income Tax completely.   The most popular of these plans is the National Sales Tax.

"The individual and corporate income tax, the capital gains tax, and the estate and gift taxes would all be eliminated.."

https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/considering-national-sales-tax

Be sure to let us all know when you see the first signs of progress!

IMHO, it's about as surreal as the Cal-3 pipedream that just went splat!
  
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SkyChief
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Re: The Case for Nationalist Libertarianism
Reply #207 - Aug 12th, 2018 at 2:49pm
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Be sure to let us all know when you see the first signs of progress!

IMHO, it's about as surreal as the Cal-3 pipedream that just went splat!

I really don't need to do that , Dink.

All I needed to do was poke a hole in one of your bullshit-balloons.

Which I did.  It popped.
  
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SicklersDink
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Re: The Case for Nationalist Libertarianism
Reply #208 - Aug 12th, 2018 at 3:02pm
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SkyChief wrote on Aug 12th, 2018 at 2:49pm:
I really don't need to do that , Dink.

All I needed to do was poke a hole in one of your bullshit-balloons.

Which I did.  It popped. 


That balloon being my assertion that income taxation will never be eliminated??

Oh brother, let's go back and pretend the Cal-3 thingy is still alive and on the books!
  
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The Opposition
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Re: The Case for Nationalist Libertarianism
Reply #209 - Aug 12th, 2018 at 3:12pm
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That balloon being my assertion that income taxation will never be eliminated??


You literally said there are no ideas to eliminate it.

Quote:
See why I'm suspicious of Oppo and what motivates him?


Why don't you just ask? I'm not a liar.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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