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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Future is Libertarian (Read 2190 times)
BobK71
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Re: The Future is Libertarian
Reply #110 - Aug 14th, 2018 at 9:21am
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Jeff wrote on Aug 13th, 2018 at 9:47am:
The markets are real enough, they are just distorted by government and central bank interference and manipulation.

How would your conclusion apply to Venezuela? Does not the Venezuelan government support their Bolivar and keep printing them as fast as possible to support their economy?


I think the 'realness' of the markets depends on how long financial assets have been propped up.  The longer they've been, the more distorted the economic activities and the more fragile the overall demand.

The whole world works like this, Venezuela included.  The West could not tolerate a truly free market economy anywhere for many reasons.  The standard setup is that a peripheral country (like Venezuela) is even more distorted and unstable than a core country (like the US,) so (A) they need our help in dollars, so they'd better toe our line, plus (B) any panic in their assets creates a flow into our assets, and helps stabilize our system.
  
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BobK71
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Re: The Future is Libertarian
Reply #111 - Aug 14th, 2018 at 9:26am
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Jeff wrote on Aug 13th, 2018 at 4:47pm:
The dogs and cats got eaten long ago. The children are fighting over pickings at the dumps instead of laughing, and their parents are helpless. There's not much worse than failing to provide for your children.


The pain in Venezuela represents blood on US's hands.  The Fed could relieve their pain tomorrow by opening a swap line for dollars with Venezuela's central bank, a service we provide to most countries (who toe the line) in similar situations.

You might argue refusal to help with a swap line is not aggression (even though we do everything in our power to make sure dollars are needed to do business in this world.)  The same can't be said of the sanctions that are imposed on Venezuela in addition.

It is always about forcing regimes around the world to do our bidding and prop up the imperial bubble.  Always.
  
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SicklersDink
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Re: The Future is Libertarian
Reply #112 - Aug 14th, 2018 at 11:35am
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BobK71 wrote on Aug 14th, 2018 at 9:26am:
The pain in Venezuela represents blood on US's hands.  The Fed could relieve their pain tomorrow by opening a swap line for dollars with Venezuela's central bank, a service we provide to most countries (who toe the line) in similar situations.

You might argue refusal to help with a swap line is not aggression (even though we do everything in our power to make sure dollars are needed to do business in this world.)  The same can't be said of the sanctions that are imposed on Venezuela in addition.

It is always about forcing regimes around the world to do our bidding and prop up the imperial bubble.  Always.


This is the current status quo for small nations that don't accede to US pressure. China likely won't come to the rescue out of the goodness of their hearts but will go in to enhance their own interests. Cuba is the first big example.

How will the US react to that now? Military war would have to start before China gets fully established.

Could it be that Cuba has a nuclear defense? A lot of people have pondered that possibility and the last time I was in Cuba it was promoted by some people in a passing way.
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Future is Libertarian
Reply #113 - Aug 14th, 2018 at 1:20pm
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BobK71 wrote on Aug 14th, 2018 at 9:21am:
I think the 'realness' of the markets depends on how long financial assets have been propped up.  The longer they've been, the more distorted the economic activities and the more fragile the overall demand.

By "propped up" financial assets, you mean central banks have created too much fiat money? That certainly makes everything more expensive, but how does it make demand "fragile", whatever that means?

The "socialists" in Venezuela ruined Venezuela's economy as the "socialists" in the U.S. are trying to ruin ours. Fiat money and artificial interest rates and regulation of financial institutions certainly is one part of the larger problem, which is "socialism", brought to us as crony capitalism.
  
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SicklersDink
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Re: The Future is Libertarian
Reply #114 - Aug 14th, 2018 at 1:27pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 14th, 2018 at 1:20pm:
By "propped up" financial assets, you mean central banks have created too much fiat money? That certainly makes everything more expensive, but how does it make demand "fragile", whatever that means?

The "socialists" in Venezuela ruined Venezuela's economy as the "socialists" in the U.S. are trying to ruin ours. Fiat money and artificial interest rates and regulation of financial institutions certainly is one part of the larger problem, which is "socialism", brought to us as crony capitalism.


The only socialism in the US are the examples I've told you about and you've suggested yourself with the 'alcohol sales to children forbidden. And then you go and try to blame socialism for your problems??

Is saving the lives of poor Americans in the ER rooms something that socialism is guilty of doing that has caused the problems you're suggesting?  Cheesy
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Future is Libertarian
Reply #115 - Aug 14th, 2018 at 1:32pm
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BobK71 wrote on Aug 14th, 2018 at 9:26am:
The pain in Venezuela represents blood on US's hands.  The Fed could relieve their pain tomorrow by opening a swap line for dollars with Venezuela's central bank, a service we provide to most countries (who toe the line) in similar situations.

You might argue refusal to help with a swap line is not aggression (even though we do everything in our power to make sure dollars are needed to do business in this world.)  The same can't be said of the sanctions that are imposed on Venezuela in addition.

It is always about forcing regimes around the world to do our bidding and prop up the imperial bubble.  Always.
Venezuela could dollarize the Bolivar any time they wanted too, but nobody is going to give dollars for Bolivars at 1:1... Venezuela needs to get rid of all the excess Bolivars they have printed to try to save their economy, and to free their economy from state control.

The Fed could fill Venezuela's central bank with dollars by creating more dollars, which would serve to inflate the supply of dollars in the world even more. I don't think you really believe that's a good idea.

Are you talking about the U.S. dollar-oil connection?

Venezuela could sell their oil to anyone they want to for whatever sort of fiat money they want, that is if they were still pumping oil. Probably they are still supplying Cuba in exchange for Pesos? Venezuela could also price it's oil in gold, but who will give them gold for oil while oil available on the market in exchange for fiat money?

In short, manipulating fiat money and interest rates because manipulating fiat money and interest rates have caused problems isn't a rational solution.

The U.S. fiat dollar still works in world markets because other fiat currencies are even less reliable. That will last, I think, until someone somewhere starts offering real money again.

China has talked about backing the yaun with gold... Who trusts the Communist Chinese government?


  
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Jeff
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Re: The Future is Libertarian
Reply #116 - Aug 14th, 2018 at 1:47pm
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The only socialism in the US are the examples I've told you about...
Control of the fiat money, and interest rates and banking and financial institutions in order to 'make things better for everyone'. Transferring wealth on a gargantuan scale. Making medical care and medical insurance so heavily regulated and providing so much of the payment through Medicare and Medicaid.
Interfering with import/export markets.
Regulation of business to favor big crony corporations and stifle start-ups and small corporations.
"Progressive" taxation.

That's the sort of things I'm calling "socialism" in America, you know the things Europe was doing decades before the U.S., which caused "socialists" in America to say we had to become more like Europe, and we have.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: The Future is Libertarian
Reply #117 - Aug 14th, 2018 at 1:50pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 14th, 2018 at 1:20pm:
...Fiat money and artificial interest rates and regulation of financial institutions certainly is one part of the larger problem, which is "socialism", brought to us as crony capitalism.

And don't forget to mention Venezuela's hyper-inflation...I think it was over 40,000% inflation last month [July].  Shocked

Possibly even higher this month??   Shocked   Shocked
  
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SicklersDink
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Re: The Future is Libertarian
Reply #118 - Aug 14th, 2018 at 2:09pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 14th, 2018 at 1:47pm:
Control of the fiat money, and interest rates and banking and financial institutions in order to 'make things better for everyone'. Transferring wealth on a gargantuan scale. Making medical care and medical insurance so heavily regulated and providing so much of the payment through Medicare and Medicaid.
Interfering with import/export markets.
Regulation of business to favor big crony corporations and stifle start-ups and small corporations.
"Progressive" taxation.

That's the sort of things I'm calling "socialism" in America, you know the things Europe was doing decades before the U.S., which caused "socialists" in America to say we had to become more like Europe, and we have.


Interesting concept calling the US socialist! And not something that I'm about to ignore. Remind me tomorrow maybe.

For now I'm just going to remind you that your purely capitalist health care system doesn't work and that's the reason why the 'socialism of providing it for free in ER's' has needed to prop it up.

My interest here is in proving that ahhell and I are right about no system being pure socialist or capitalist. If you're ready to concede that simple point then maybe we can get deeper into some grownup political discussions?

You can't continue to ignore the obvious. You don't usually before you 'go off' but in this instance you are. 
  
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BobK71
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Re: The Future is Libertarian
Reply #119 - Aug 15th, 2018 at 1:17pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 14th, 2018 at 1:32pm:
Venezuela could dollarize the Bolivar any time they wanted too, but nobody is going to give dollars for Bolivars at 1:1...

They don't have enough dollars to dollarize the Bolivar at anything close to the 1:1 rate.  If they simply use dollars (or something equivalent,) there would be a lot of deflation and pain because they don't have enough dollars, and their economy is already distorted by the earlier financial inflation.  (This is really the same everywhere, just that we make sure everyone has it worse than us, basically.)

Jeff wrote on Aug 14th, 2018 at 1:32pm:
Venezuela needs to get rid of all the excess Bolivars they have printed to try to save their economy, and to free their economy from state control.

It's the same line every time, everywhere.  They won't do that because it would mean the end of their regime, from temporary economic pain.  Fundamentally, this condition of being addicted to financial inflation is not different from the US or any other country.

The only difference is that their financial inflation is worse (which is no different from most other countries) and we control the global purse strings.  Countries have to toe the line to support the dollar, or they're a socialist failure, a debt-binging failure, a dictatorship failure, or whatever failure, but we make sure they fail.

Socialism is far from the issue.  (What we have at the top and core of our system is socialism to benefit Goldman Sachs, if you really want to be anti-socialist.)

Jeff wrote on Aug 14th, 2018 at 1:32pm:
The Fed could fill Venezuela's central bank with dollars by creating more dollars, which would serve to inflate the supply of dollars in the world even more. I don't think you really believe that's a good idea.


That is the public line, of course.

Jeff wrote on Aug 14th, 2018 at 1:32pm:
Are you talking about the U.S. dollar-oil connection?

No.
Jeff wrote on Aug 14th, 2018 at 1:32pm:
Venezuela could sell their oil to anyone they want to for whatever sort of fiat money they want, that is if they were still pumping oil. Probably they are still supplying Cuba in exchange for Pesos? Venezuela could also price it's oil in gold, but who will give them gold for oil while oil available on the market in exchange for fiat money?

In short, manipulating fiat money and interest rates because manipulating fiat money and interest rates have caused problems isn't a rational solution.


Funny how humans like to impose religion on others but not themselves...

Jeff wrote on Aug 14th, 2018 at 1:32pm:
The U.S. fiat dollar still works in world markets because other fiat currencies are even less reliable. That will last, I think, until someone somewhere starts offering real money again.

China has talked about backing the yaun with gold... Who trusts the Communist Chinese government?



  
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