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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) After seeing the collapse of the socialist Venezuela economy (Read 1625 times)
SkyChief
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Re: After seeing the collapse of the socialist Venezuela economy
Reply #10 - Jul 26th, 2018 at 8:57am
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Tom Palven wrote on Jul 26th, 2018 at 2:58am:
I agree with you that US sanctions aren't the main problem, but I think you'll agree that sanctions, whether on Venezuela, Iran, Russia, or whomever, are pathetic, and are also sanctions against Americans who want to do buisness in those countries.

I do agree.  Citizens will always pay the price for meaningless sanctions and failed foreign policy.

It costs over $24 for a decent Cuban cigar.  That's outrageous.  They should only cost between $4 and $5 a stick. 

Failed US sanctions against Cuba -  that began in the 1960s!
  
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RubyHypatia
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Re: After seeing the collapse of the socialist Venezuela economy
Reply #11 - Jul 26th, 2018 at 9:25am
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The usual claim is that the "leaders" weren't actually good socialists and therefore didn't correctly create a good (or real) socialist system...

But next time, a good "leader" will arise and do it right.


That's exactly right, Jeff.  These people have a religious devotion to it.  They will not look at it logically.
  
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SicklersDink
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Re: After seeing the collapse of the socialist Venezuela economy
Reply #12 - Jul 26th, 2018 at 10:54am
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SkyChief wrote on Jul 26th, 2018 at 8:57am:
I do agree.  Citizens will always pay the price for meaningless sanctions and failed foreign policy.

It costs over $24 for a decent Cuban cigar.  That's outrageous.  They should only cost between $4 and $5 a stick. 

Failed US sanctions against Cuba -  that began in the 1960s!

It costs more than $24 for a Cohiba chief and the tourists pay it too. The mistake you're making by saying that it should cost $4 is that it should cost about $1.

That's how capitalism works! The free market sets the price.

So your 'should' doesn't apply to Cohibas. But you're on the right track because it DOES apply to essential food in Cuba. The bottle of Italian dressing will have real sugar too.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: After seeing the collapse of the socialist Venezuela economy
Reply #13 - Jul 26th, 2018 at 11:12am
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It costs more than $24 for a Cohiba chief and the tourists pay it too. The mistake you're making by saying that it should cost $4 is that it should cost about $1.

That's how capitalism works! The free market sets the price.

So your 'should' doesn't apply to Cohibas.

Did you think that Cohibas are the only decent Cuban cigar made in Cuba?  Roll Eyes

I said  "It costs over $24 for a decent Cuban cigar."  and it does.

Also, you completely missed the point about 50-year old sanctions not working.
  
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SicklersDink
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Re: After seeing the collapse of the socialist Venezuela economy
Reply #14 - Jul 26th, 2018 at 11:25am
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SkyChief wrote on Jul 26th, 2018 at 11:12am:
Did you think that Cohibas are the only decent Cuban cigar made in Cuba?  Roll Eyes

I said  "It costs over $24 for a decent Cuban cigar."  and it does.

Also, you completely missed the point about 50-year old sanctions not working.


No, I didn't miss the point, I just used it to my advantage to make my point.

I'm more than happy to talk about sanctions not working if you care to keep it polite and on topic. I refuse to get into the hateful rhetoric about people apparently having to eat their pets.

This sort of evil hateful attitude is not good for our libertarian cause. Nobody is going to be interested in joining in with people who take delight in other people's suffering.

Especially libertarian minded people who understand that it's the US that destroys other small countries and inflicts the pain.

I think you've been there with me in the past on understanding this. You need to shed your bad feelings and start talking like a real libertarian again.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: After seeing the collapse of the socialist Venezuela economy
Reply #15 - Jul 26th, 2018 at 11:56am
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I refuse to get into the hateful rhetoric about people apparently having to eat their pets.


I've already explained to you that is not hateful rhetoric.  It's reality.

I even provided you with a news clip which verifies that it happens.

You repeat the same lie in the hopes that if you say it enough times, eventually, people will start to believe it.

That's delusional thinking, Dink.

The reality is that socialism fails because it inevitably makes its citizens rely on redistribution by the government.

Every citizen becomes a ward of the State.  This is why we libertarians so strongly object to it.

When a powerful central government owns all means of production and distribution, there can't be any competition, profits, losses, or free market. 

With socialism, there are no incentives to innovate, to explore, or to be creative.

Laissez-faire capitalism is conducive to innovation, exploration and creativity. 

Come on in, Dink  - the water's fine!   Smiley
  
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SicklersDink
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Re: After seeing the collapse of the socialist Venezuela economy
Reply #16 - Jul 26th, 2018 at 12:09pm
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SkyChief wrote on Jul 26th, 2018 at 11:56am:
I've already explained to you that is not hateful rhetoric.  It's reality.

I even provided you with a news clip which verifies that it happens.

You repeat the same lie in the hopes that if you say it enough times, eventually, people will start to believe it.

That's delusional thinking, Dink.

The reality is that socialism fails because it inevitably makes its citizens rely on redistribution by the government.

Every citizen becomes a ward of the State.  This is why we libertarians so strongly object to it.

When a powerful central government owns all means of production and distribution, there can't be any competition, profits, losses, or free market. 

With socialism, there are no incentives to innovate, to explore, or to be creative.

Laissez-faire capitalism is conducive to innovation, exploration and creativity. 

Come on in, Dink  - the water's fine!   Smiley


There are other discussions taking place on this forum that are starting to examine issues above just the window dressing you're always on about.

We've moved on to the more reasonable and coherent libertarians understanding that capitalism contains a blend of socialist policy. We're not interested in wasting our time with the kneejerk exaggeration of it being socialism.

You've got to get there Chief. We're never going to find any common ground until you do.

And if you don't then you're going to be left behind. Right now, all you have to help you survive is my boss's spamming and temper tantrums he throws when he 'goes off' at about 2 p.m. every day.

Just let me know when you're ready to talk about the 'real' capitalism that's being practiced in all modern capitalist countries..

It's not going to go away.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: After seeing the collapse of the socialist Venezuela economy
Reply #17 - Jul 26th, 2018 at 12:44pm
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We've moved on to the more reasonable and coherent libertarians understanding that capitalism contains a blend of socialist policy. We're not interested in wasting our time with the kneejerk exaggeration of it being socialism.

You've got to get there Chief....   And if you don't then you're going to be left behind.

You still believe that a central government should redistribute wealth to its citizens.

Libertarians don't believe that a limited government should coerce its citizens to surrender their earnings to them.

"The Libertarian Party is fundamentally opposed to the use of force to coerce people into doing anything. We think it is inherently wrong and should have no role in a civilized society. Thus, we think that government forcing people to pay taxes is inherently wrong."


https://www.lp.org/issues/taxes/
  
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SicklersDink
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Re: After seeing the collapse of the socialist Venezuela economy
Reply #18 - Jul 26th, 2018 at 12:49pm
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SkyChief wrote on Jul 26th, 2018 at 12:44pm:
You still believe that a central government should redistribute wealth to its citizens.

Libertarians don't believe that a limited government should coerce its citizens to surrender their earnings to them.

"The Libertarian Party is fundamentally opposed to the use of force to coerce people into doing anything. We think it is inherently wrong and should have no role in a civilized society. Thus, we think that government forcing people to pay taxes is inherently wrong."


https://www.lp.org/issues/taxes/


I'm perfectly aware of what 'we' think as libertarians and I don't dispute any of it.

The answer is in not making ridiculous and impossible interpretations of any of it!

And again: Does the NAP include not allowing the law to punish a criminal by FORCING him to go to jail.

One example of why the NAP must be carefully considered and moderated to make it work.

Actually, to keep prospective new libertarians from laughing at it!
  
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RubyHypatia
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Re: After seeing the collapse of the socialist Venezuela economy
Reply #19 - Jul 26th, 2018 at 1:29pm
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Don, why do you pretend to be a libertarian?  We all see how you get offended when it's pointed out that socialism doesn't work.
  
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