Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Does Libertarianism Have a Future?
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3  Send TopicPrint
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Does Libertarianism Have a Future? (Read 167 times)
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 32524
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Does Libertarianism Have a Future?
Reply #10 - Jul 30th, 2018 at 8:20am
Print Post  
Andrew_Armao wrote on Jul 29th, 2018 at 8:26pm:
I believe Sicklersdink is Canadian, so he doesn't have a bone in this fight. As long as we continue what has been done in the past, we won't become popular.

Both parties are corrupt. That's a powerful position to be against right there. Second, both Bernie and Trump had large constituencies that voted purely based on Fair trade.

What is mindboggleing to me, is that all three notable parties are for free trade. There is BIG support for fair trade, with alot of working class willing to vote for a SOCIALIST just to get it. If we adopt anti-corruption, also something people were willing to vote for a socialist for, we would get support.

Trump also represented not being afraid to be proud to be American. If we embrace the look of Americanism, owning it, being the patriotic party. Pushing for investing in ourselves, and giving voters SOMETHING to vote for, then we will get traction.
It seems more likely that Dick is a Russian troll, but anyway, a strictly limited government that treats everyone equally under the law will permit free trade (which is proven to be the best for any economy, even if it is unilateral), will severely limit corruption because government won't have any power to do favors for anyone, so no one will try to buy government officials or bureaucrats of which there wil be very few, and it won't matter whether you love America or hate it, you can live here and freely express your opinions.

Even elected public servants who hate America will be constrained by the law from actually harming it, although they too will be free to express their opinions.

Libertarian organizations like the Cato Institute are dedicated to the principles of individual liberty, limited government, free markets and peace.

People all across the spectrum of human behavior, even the extremists, are in agreement with at least some of those ideals.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ahhell
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 2087
Joined: Sep 21st, 2016
Re: Does Libertarianism Have a Future?
Reply #11 - Jul 30th, 2018 at 9:27am
Print Post  
Libertarianism does not have a future because most people value safety over freedom.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 32524
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Does Libertarianism Have a Future?
Reply #12 - Jul 30th, 2018 at 10:33am
Print Post  
ahhell wrote on Jul 30th, 2018 at 9:27am:
Libertarianism does not have a future because most people value safety over freedom.
Unless you are proposing that human nature has changed, the creation of the United States of America would have been impossible. The American colonies would never have rebelled and won their independence.

Edit: I think the Declaration of Independence got it right, "...that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ahhell
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 2087
Joined: Sep 21st, 2016
Re: Does Libertarianism Have a Future?
Reply #13 - Jul 30th, 2018 at 10:45am
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Jul 30th, 2018 at 10:33am:
Unless you are proposing that human nature has changed, the creation of the United States of America would have been impossible. The American colonies would never have rebelled and won their independence.
I think it was a fluke, the right collection of of influential people who were raised and educated at the end of the Enlightenment. 

Revolutions happen when the current overlords no longer provided either safety or liberty.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 32524
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Does Libertarianism Have a Future?
Reply #14 - Jul 30th, 2018 at 10:50am
Print Post  
ahhell wrote on Jul 30th, 2018 at 10:45am:
I think it was a fluke, the right collection of of influential people who were raised and educated at the end of the Enlightenment. 

Revolutions happen when the current overlords no longer provided either safety or liberty.
See my edit to my previous post.

There are more people aware of and knowledgeable about the principles that led to the American experiment now than there were then. Again, a small group of influential people, but more of them than ever and more widespread around the world.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ahhell
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 2087
Joined: Sep 21st, 2016
Re: Does Libertarianism Have a Future?
Reply #15 - Jul 30th, 2018 at 10:59am
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Jul 30th, 2018 at 10:50am:
See my edit to my previous post.

There are more people aware of and knowledgeable about the principles that led to the American experiment now than there were then. Again, a small group of influential people, but more of them than ever and more widespread around the world.

You are more optimistic than I am, I suppose.  I think Marx's children are more common, widespread, and influential.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 7224
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: Does Libertarianism Have a Future?
Reply #16 - Jul 30th, 2018 at 11:28am
Print Post  
ahhell wrote on Jul 30th, 2018 at 9:27am:
Libertarianism does not have a future because most people value safety over freedom.


I value equality over either of those.

But it doesn't matter what I value personally. Libertarianism is morally correct because it respects rights, and other political philosophies are not correct because they advocate violating rights.

Because I don't have rights, I would personally prefer to live under a system that doesn't respect anyone else's rights, either; one that pretends people have an equal amount of rights. But again, it doesn't matter what I prefer selfishly. One might prefer to murder people who annoy them, but it's still wrong.
  

Making Sci-Fi great again since 2063.

Not taking Jeff seriously until he admits this is animal abuse (which he says should be illegal): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE-IT7_CaE4
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 32524
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Does Libertarianism Have a Future?
Reply #17 - Jul 30th, 2018 at 2:02pm
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Jul 30th, 2018 at 11:28am:
I value equality over either of those.

What do you mean by equality?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ahhell
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 2087
Joined: Sep 21st, 2016
Re: Does Libertarianism Have a Future?
Reply #18 - Jul 30th, 2018 at 2:17pm
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Jul 30th, 2018 at 11:28am:
I value equality over either of those.

But it doesn't matter what I value personally. Libertarianism is morally correct because it respects rights, and other political philosophies are not correct because they advocate violating rights.

Because I don't have rights, I would personally prefer to live under a system that doesn't respect anyone else's rights, either; one that pretends people have an equal amount of rights. But again, it doesn't matter what I prefer selfishly. One might prefer to murder people who annoy them, but it's still wrong.

Sure but if most people prefer to murder people who annoy them, you'd like live in a place where it was legal to do so. 

I'm not making a moral or ethical argument.  Just describing the world as I see it.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 7224
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: Does Libertarianism Have a Future?
Reply #19 - Jul 30th, 2018 at 2:44pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Jul 30th, 2018 at 2:02pm:
What do you mean by equality?


Either everyone having the same rights, or no one having any rights. I personally don't give a flying tarbat which one.

ahhell wrote on Jul 30th, 2018 at 2:17pm:
Sure but if most people prefer to murder people who annoy them, you'd likely live in a place where it was legal to do so.


I have to add a caveat to this to make it true: Most people have to prefer to murder those who annoy them, and not give a shit if they're murdered themselves.

Even if most people want to do this, in a world where government forces equality, they'll never vote for it, because that means they can be murdered too.

In a libertarian world, though, wherein some can be easily defined out of having rights, those few can simply be gunned down whether they have aggressed or not, while also being restrained by rights from aggressing against others!

Opposition Does Not Have Rights
merkelstan wrote on Feb 28th, 2017 at 11:15pm:
Rothbard's criteria makes more sense, because not only does the entity have to demonstrate conscious thought, it needs to understand the concept of rights and demand them for itself.

Amusingly, The Opposition would fail that test.  I still can't get-over what a mental trainwreck his (her?) "concept" of rights was.


Jeff wrote on Feb 24th, 2018 at 7:49am:
You have no more rights than an animal, because your understanding of rights is at the level of a predatory animal.


Okay, so I'm an animal, because I don't think the right way. I get that. (And I'm not going to change my beliefs just to get rights.)

I prefer to live in a society of other animals, so I can hurt them if they hurt me.

If I don't have rights, I prefer that no one else has them either.

Equality.

Simple.
  

Making Sci-Fi great again since 2063.

Not taking Jeff seriously until he admits this is animal abuse (which he says should be illegal): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE-IT7_CaE4
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Does Libertarianism Have a Future?
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy