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The Opposition
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Re: How a Libertarian Strips Rights: A Challenge
Reply #10 - Aug 1st, 2018 at 10:31pm
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Andrew_Armao wrote on Aug 1st, 2018 at 6:41pm:
You see Opposition, Jeff is acting the part of a Moral Busibody, giving out purity tests as though he is a priest.


Everyone is. Most people would deny that a headless person has rights.

Andrew_Armao wrote on Aug 1st, 2018 at 6:41pm:
I understand his viewpoint, that the world is as it is perceived by the individual perceiving it. Therefore, if you don't recognize his view your not the same as him. YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED to be the same.


I recognise and accept that I do not have rights. In other words, I agree with Jeff, Kaz, Don, and Merklestan.

The question becomes what I should do about this. I probably should pick the cop who will search my car over the libertarian who says I can be gunned down and enjoyed as a "free good".

I don't care if my car is searched. I'm not doing anything illegal.

I care if I'm shot in the street, though. That costs me my life. Having my car searched, or my house searched, or my property confiscated doesn't do that.

If a policeman does do any of those things, I'm not going to be resentful; I'm going to be thanking my lucky stars it was a cop instead of a libertarian.

Andrew_Armao wrote on Aug 1st, 2018 at 6:41pm:
The hilarious hypocrisy and paradoxical situation here, is that perception by a person is indeed what makes us human, but, no two people perceive the world identically, let alone comparatively. Liberty, would acknowledge people of any kind of intellect, or any kind of idea, for argument into the best ideas.

I would never want EVERYONE to believe identically, because furious debate sharpens ourselves into a stronger society, never being afraid of things that are different or unknown. It would be impossible for everyone to believe the same anyway, so it is utterly redundant to even fathom.


That's a beautiful thought. It happens to be a Statist one, not a libertarian one. Libertarians believe you must think like them to have rights.

Andrew_Armao wrote on Aug 1st, 2018 at 6:41pm:
A human putting his foot down saying I have rights is uniquely human, but not exclusively in an infinite reality we exist in.


I will never ever do this. I think it's wrong to unilaterally impose behaviour restrictions on others.

I will mutually agree to respect any right you like, but no one has any reason to do that, since I already must respect every right you discover without having any of my own, because I won't unilaterally demand.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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The Opposition
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Re: How a Libertarian Strips Rights: A Challenge
Reply #11 - Aug 1st, 2018 at 10:32pm
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SkyChief wrote on Aug 1st, 2018 at 5:44pm:
If a person wants his/her rights respected, he/she must be willing to assert them.


I have known the bullshit "correct answer" to Jeff's little tissy fit this whole time. I'm supposed to say screw you, I have rights regardless of what you say.

But I have a moral objection to demanding rights. I think rights should be about how people mutually want to treat each other, not a one-sided imposition.

Libertarians seem to understand that positive rights are bollocks - the idea that another person must provide something to you - so why can't you understand that a you can't do that to me can be just as much of a one-sided imposition as a you must do this for me?

Do you imagine people have a right to manufacture (I'm sorry, discover) an unlimited number of rights, as long as they are negative?

You can't yell at me.

You can't offend me.

You can't appropriate my culture.

...All negative rights! And you imagine you have absolutely no say over the negative restrictions people place on your actions? As long as someone discovers a right, just okay then?

I imagine that they can't just discover a right not to be offended, or even a right not to be murdered. Not to be murdered might be the most basic right to us, but that's because we all agree that everyone is better off this way. We don't all agree that there is a right not to be offended. Many people prefer to speak freely, and I don't think it's okay for someone to discover a right and impose it on everyone.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: How a Libertarian Strips Rights: A Challenge
Reply #12 - Aug 2nd, 2018 at 8:24am
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The Opposition wrote on Aug 1st, 2018 at 10:31pm:
I probably should pick the cop who will search my car over the libertarian who says I can be gunned down and enjoyed as a "free good".
Have you stopped taking your meds, or recently changed to new meds?

That statement about "libertarians who would gun you down and enjoy you as a "free good" is so absurd as to be hilariously funny. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
  
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Jeff
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Re: How a Libertarian Strips Rights: A Challenge
Reply #13 - Aug 2nd, 2018 at 8:27am
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The Opposition wrote on Aug 1st, 2018 at 10:32pm:
I have known the bullshit "correct answer" to Jeff's little tissy fit this whole time. I'm supposed to say screw you, I have rights regardless of what you say.

I notice you still haven't said "I have rights because all humans have rights and I am human".

That's the key lizard. Animals don't have human rights, people do.

Are you human?
  
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Jeff
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Re: How a Libertarian Strips Rights: A Challenge
Reply #14 - Aug 2nd, 2018 at 8:32am
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The Opposition wrote on Aug 1st, 2018 at 10:32pm:
Do you imagine people have a right to manufacture (I'm sorry, discover) an unlimited number of rights, as long as they are negative?

You can't yell at me.

You can't offend me.

You can't appropriate my culture.

You still don't understand rights.

I can't threaten you with bodily harm, but I can yell at you.

I can offend you.

I can appropriate anything I like from "your" culture" because it isn't yours... You have no property rights in "your" culture, which is certainly an amalgam of appropriations from other cultures anyway.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: How a Libertarian Strips Rights: A Challenge
Reply #15 - Aug 2nd, 2018 at 10:01pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 2nd, 2018 at 8:27am:
I notice you still haven't said "I have rights because all humans have rights and I am human".

That's the key lizard. Animals don't have human rights, people do.

Are you human?


If I have to say anything special to get rights, I don't want them.

Jeff wrote on Aug 2nd, 2018 at 8:32am:
You still don't understand rights.


I understand that I can't sing a song if you sang it first.

Jeff wrote on Aug 2nd, 2018 at 8:32am:
I can't threaten you with bodily harm, but I can yell at you.

I can offend you.


Yet libertarians do place restrictions on speech. I can't sing a song if it's intellectual property of someone else.

The right not to be offended is a negative right some rights-hog has discovered unilaterally. You don't think you have to respect it!

Jeff wrote on Aug 2nd, 2018 at 8:32am:
I can appropriate anything I like from "your" culture" because it isn't yours... You have no property rights in "your" culture, which is certainly an amalgam of appropriations from other cultures anyway.


Cultural appropriation is stealing if copying is stealing. Cultural appropriation is a form of copying. It's actually a form of intellectual property claim, where the members of that culture claim collective ownership.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: How a Libertarian Strips Rights: A Challenge
Reply #16 - Aug 2nd, 2018 at 10:55pm
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The Opposition wrote on Aug 1st, 2018 at 10:31pm:
I don't care if my car is searched. I'm not doing anything illegal.

If a policeman does do any of those things, I'm not going to be resentful; I'm going to be thanking my lucky stars it was a cop instead of a libertarian.

The policeman is in a position to do much more harm to you than any libertarian ever could (or would, for that matter!)... 

His/her raises depends on it.

Scout's honor!
  
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Jeff
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Re: How a Libertarian Strips Rights: A Challenge
Reply #17 - Aug 3rd, 2018 at 8:08am
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The Opposition wrote on Aug 2nd, 2018 at 10:01pm:
If I have to say anything special to get rights, I don't want them.


As long as you look human and don't commit any serious crimes, your rights will mostly be respected in the U.S. and most civilized Western nations, whether you want rights or not.

Libertarians are working hard to try to afford you full economic rights as well as to preserve your rights of free speech and conscience and freedom of association, whether you want rights or not, because libertarians believe that if you are human, you have rights.


  
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Jeff
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Re: How a Libertarian Strips Rights: A Challenge
Reply #18 - Aug 3rd, 2018 at 8:11am
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The Opposition wrote on Aug 2nd, 2018 at 10:01pm:
The right not to be offended is a negative right some rights-hog has discovered unilaterally. You don't think you have to respect it!
There is no right to not be offended. Imaging that one exists results in the absurdity of no one being allowed to speak at all, because anyone can claim to be offended by anything.
  
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Re: How a Libertarian Strips Rights: A Challenge
Reply #19 - Aug 3rd, 2018 at 8:16am
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The Opposition wrote on Aug 2nd, 2018 at 10:01pm:
Cultural appropriation is stealing if copying is stealing. Cultural appropriation is a form of copying. It's actually a form of intellectual property claim, where the members of that culture claim collective ownership.
Claiming ownership of something you didn't create is absurd. The French can make some "collective" claim that French cooking was "collectively" created by the French, so no one else but the French can prepare French dishes... but the fact is that some really good Italian cooks taught the French how to cook, which means the French can't prepare French cuisine either, because they 'appropriated' it from the Italians.
  
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