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The Opposition
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Re: How a Libertarian Strips Rights: A Challenge
Reply #100 - Jan 1st, 2019 at 3:35pm
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kaz wrote on Jan 1st, 2019 at 1:01pm:
Strawman.  Jeff said you don't have rights, I've consistently said you do.


Merklestan and Don also said that I don't have rights.

These people believe they are free to kill me.

I have yet to meet one authoritarian who thinks they are free to kill me, and that that's moral.

I've posted on neo-Nazi forums and said I was black, and I still can't find anyone who thinks it's perfectly fine to kill without provocation like that. They think other races have less rights, not none. Murder is still murder. They want separation from races they see as aggressive, they want deportations to protect them from the big bad brown people, and some of them see threats of violence as provocation, but I cannot find one that thinks straight-up shooting anyone in the face with no provocation is moral.

I cannot find a vicious, neo-Nazi animal who believes it's moral to shoot someone in the face.

This is a libertarian forum with about six or seven regular posters.

I've found three.

That's not a strawman. It's the truth.

And Don was the only one you could reasonably say wasn't libertarian. Merklestan's objections to me having rights derive directly from Rothbard. Jeff's objections derive pretty closely from Hoppe.

This was a challenge. You haven't met it.

The Opposition wrote on Jul 30th, 2018 at 3:41pm:
Here's the challenge: Find me an example of what you think is some horrible tyrannical act and explain to me how libertarians running the world and just stripping the rights of (I'm sorry, defining out of having rights) the victims would be any different.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: How a Libertarian Strips Rights: A Challenge
Reply #101 - Jan 1st, 2019 at 4:12pm
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kaz wrote on Jan 1st, 2019 at 1:01pm:
Strawman.  Jeff said you don't have rights...
And as long as it insists that it is an animal, I will keep saying that, as an animal, the lizard doesn't possess the same rights as do humans.

Why does this seem like an impenetrable proposition?
  
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kaz
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Re: How a Libertarian Strips Rights: A Challenge
Reply #102 - Jan 1st, 2019 at 4:17pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jan 1st, 2019 at 3:35pm:
Merklestan and Don also said that I don't have rights.

These people believe they are free to kill me.

I have yet to meet one authoritarian who thinks they are free to kill me, and that that's moral.

I've posted on neo-Nazi forums and said I was black, and I still can't find anyone who thinks it's perfectly fine to kill without provocation like that. They think other races have less rights, not none. Murder is still murder. They want separation from races they see as aggressive, they want deportations to protect them from the big bad brown people, and some of them see threats of violence as provocation, but I cannot find one that thinks straight-up shooting anyone in the face with no provocation is moral.

I cannot find a vicious, neo-Nazi animal who believes it's moral to shoot someone in the face.

This is a libertarian forum with about six or seven regular posters.

I've found three.

That's not a strawman. It's the truth.

And Don was the only one you could reasonably say wasn't libertarian. Merklestan's objections to me having rights derive directly from Rothbard. Jeff's objections derive pretty closely from Hoppe.

This was a challenge. You haven't met it.



I said that I didn't say you don't have rights.  You have the same rights as everyone else.  If you don't exercise them, that doesn't remove the right.

That I said you were wrong about that doesn't mean I have to address other points in your post.  Fail
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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Jeff
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Re: How a Libertarian Strips Rights: A Challenge
Reply #103 - Jan 1st, 2019 at 4:58pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jan 1st, 2019 at 3:35pm:
These people believe they are free to kill me.


You think it's morally wrong to kill animals for food?


  
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The Opposition
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Re: How a Libertarian Strips Rights: A Challenge
Reply #104 - Jan 1st, 2019 at 5:25pm
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kaz wrote on Jan 1st, 2019 at 4:17pm:
I said that I didn't say you don't have rights.  You have the same rights as everyone else.


Not in a libertarian system, because many libertarians think I don't have rights.

Will the government protect me? Absolutely, because, according to the government, I have rights.

Will a private security company protect me? I estimate about a 3/7 chance they'll take my money and kill me because they think that's okay.

It's you who's not addressing my point about libertarians being more likely to justify acts that would be considered tyrannical against someone with rights. Libertarians will just say the victim doesn't have rights.

So the people with rights end up great in a libertarian system, at the expense of everyone else. Smells like good old fashioned tyranny to me.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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kaz
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Re: How a Libertarian Strips Rights: A Challenge
Reply #105 - Jan 1st, 2019 at 7:24pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jan 1st, 2019 at 5:25pm:
Not in a libertarian system, because many libertarians think I don't have rights


non-sequitur

The Opposition wrote on Jan 1st, 2019 at 5:25pm:
Will the government protect me? Absolutely, because, according to the government, I have rights


Where did you get the idea government protects you?  Your legal rights are protections from government, not other citizens

The Opposition wrote on Jan 1st, 2019 at 5:25pm:
Will a private security company protect me? I estimate about a 3/7 chance they'll take my money and kill me because they think that's okay.

It's you who's not addressing my point about libertarians being more likely to justify acts that would be considered tyrannical against someone with rights. Libertarians will just say the victim doesn't have rights.

So the people with rights end up great in a libertarian system, at the expense of everyone else. Smells like good old fashioned tyranny to me.



That's correct, I didn't address that.  I addressed your false claim I said that you don't have rights.  I have always said the reverse.  Not exercising your rights does not remove your rights
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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The Opposition
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Re: How a Libertarian Strips Rights: A Challenge
Reply #106 - Jan 1st, 2019 at 7:55pm
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kaz wrote on Jan 1st, 2019 at 7:24pm:
non-sequitur


It's a non-sequitur that I'm less trustworthy of a system where people who don't think I have rights make the rules?

I recognise that it's not every libertarian who thinks that, but it's a large enough proportion, and the justifications in libertarian theory are clear enough that it's troubling.

kaz wrote on Jan 1st, 2019 at 7:24pm:
Where did you get the idea government protects you?  Your legal rights are protections from government, not other citizens


The government protects me from libertarians, and perhaps other extremists, who think it's okay to kill me. Jeff is being restrained from killing me by the government.

kaz wrote on Jan 1st, 2019 at 7:24pm:
That's correct, I didn't address that.  I addressed your false claim I said that you don't have rights.  I have always said the reverse.  Not exercising your rights does not remove your rights


The fact that you think I have rights does nothing for me if a large portion of people making the rules think I don't.

Remember, you're also pulling perspective hocus-pocus.

No, in theory, someone saying I don't have rights doesn't remove them if I really have them.

I also don't gain rights because you think I have them, if I really don't have them to begin with.

Jeff could easily be correct that I don't have rights. There is strong libertarian justification for it. If so, I would be a fool to support a libertarian system. I, and everyone else without rights, would be much happier in a system that grants us effective rights.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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kaz
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Re: How a Libertarian Strips Rights: A Challenge
Reply #107 - Jan 1st, 2019 at 8:29pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jan 1st, 2019 at 7:55pm:
It's a non-sequitur that I'm less trustworthy of a system where people who don't think I have rights make the rules?

I recognise that it's not every libertarian who thinks that, but it's a large enough proportion, and the justifications in libertarian theory are clear enough that it's troubling.


The government protects me from libertarians, and perhaps other extremists, who think it's okay to kill me. Jeff is being restrained from killing me by the government.


The fact that you think I have rights does nothing for me if a large portion of people making the rules think I don't.

Remember, you're also pulling perspective hocus-pocus.

No, in theory, someone saying I don't have rights doesn't remove them if I really have them.

I also don't gain rights because you think I have them, if I really don't have them to begin with.

Jeff could easily be correct that I don't have rights. There is strong libertarian justification for it. If so, I would be a fool to support a libertarian system. I, and everyone else without rights, would be much happier in a system that grants us effective rights.

Wow, that's naive.  If I shoot you, government will draw a line around your body and make some inquiries to see if they can figure out I did it.  If they find out I did it, they will arrest me and try me for murder.  That doesn't do shit for you or your family.

Keep on dreaming.  I hope you never learn the reality of your childlike belief government will do squat to protect you. They protect my rights as the criminal, not your rights as the victim.  They also are far more likely to put you in jeopardy than me.  For example, keeping you from defending yourself with a gun.

Government protects you, that's classic.  It is actually wet behind your ears, isn't it?
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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The Opposition
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Re: How a Libertarian Strips Rights: A Challenge
Reply #108 - Jan 1st, 2019 at 9:50pm
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kaz wrote on Jan 1st, 2019 at 8:29pm:
Wow, that's naive.  If I shoot you, government will draw a line around your body and make some inquiries to see if they can figure out I did it.  If they find out I did it, they will arrest me and try me for murder.  That doesn't do shit for you or your family.


It does and it has. The threat of punishment deters potential murderers. It just doesn't stop people who are already murderers (recidivism).

If people could kill without consequences, they would.

Your argument is that I should support a system where a large portion of its proponents believe I do not have rights because it doesn't matter if I have rights or not; I'll be killed anyway.

Evidence does not support that as I am still alive.

I have agreed over and over that only libertarianism is moral. It'll never be realised because most people don't want to be gunned down like animals because they don't have rights, and libertarianism makes it very easy to define someone out of having rights.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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kaz
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Re: How a Libertarian Strips Rights: A Challenge
Reply #109 - Jan 1st, 2019 at 10:05pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jan 1st, 2019 at 9:50pm:
It does and it has. The threat of punishment deters potential murderers. It just doesn't stop people who are already murderers (recidivism).

If people could kill without consequences, they would.

Your argument is that I should support a system where a large portion of its proponents believe I do not have rights because it doesn't matter if I have rights or not; I'll be killed anyway.

Evidence does not support that as I am still alive.

I have agreed over and over that only libertarianism is moral. It'll never be realised because most people don't want to be gunned down like animals because they don't have rights, and libertarianism makes it very easy to define someone out of having rights.


1)  Strawman.  Stop telling me what I think, you suck at it

2)  Government can regulate the roads.  Convince people that government should follow your philosophy.  I find it unconvincing, but you have the right to try.  Go to it
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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