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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Reminder We dont post articles (Read 1440 times)
SnarkySack
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Re: Reminder We dont post articles
Reply #30 - Aug 9th, 2018 at 9:36am
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Jeff wrote on Aug 8th, 2018 at 4:29pm:
In the past, the moderator sent me private messages, but not one about this.

I suspect that the moderator has discovered that some people are cutting and pasting long dissertations that were created by someone else, and not making attribution. Plagiarism is the technical legal term I think.


Yes, I think that is what he meant.   So you are free to disregard my interpretation and post how you please.  But understand that with me anyway, responding to my argument with only a link as if the link is a slam-dunk counter-argument will simply stop the discussion.


  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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SnarkySack
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Re: Reminder We dont post articles
Reply #31 - Aug 9th, 2018 at 9:40am
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Jeff wrote on Aug 8th, 2018 at 5:41pm:
I get it!

Taxation is theft whether it's the uniform taxation of incomes and profits and rents and such like stuff, or the apportioned taxation of wages and salaries and other types of property.


Yes, it is.  I don't know if you're being sarcastic but taxes are always theft.  At no time does the government have the moral right to use force to take property.  No more than it would have the moral right to use force to require people to work for it.

If that means that there would be no government (it doesn't), then the choice is between acting immorally or not having a government. 

There is no way to forcibly take rightfully-owned property from others AND be morally right.
  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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SkyChief
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Re: Reminder We dont post articles
Reply #32 - Aug 9th, 2018 at 11:42am
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SnarkySack wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 9:40am:
There is no way to forcibly take rightfully-owned property from others AND be morally right.

Well said, burns.

Are you familiar with Pollock vs Farmers' Loan and Trust Co [1895]?  No?  It basically found that direct taxes were unconstitutional because they violated the provision that direct taxes be apportioned.

The 16th Amendment torpedoed the Pollock ruling and gave the government "power" to seize incomes -   "from whatever source derived".

So, what does all this have to do with the morality of taxes?   Absolutely nothing, of course.

Libertarians object to any taxes when the government takes our money or property by coercion.
  
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SicklersDink
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Re: Reminder We dont post articles
Reply #33 - Aug 9th, 2018 at 11:56am
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SkyChief wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 11:42am:
Well said, burns.

Are you familiar with Pollock vs Farmers' Loan and Trust Co [1895]?  No?  It basically found that direct taxes were unconstitutional because they violated the provision that direct taxes be apportioned.

The 16th Amendment torpedoed the Pollock ruling and gave the government "power" to seize incomes -   "from whatever source derived".

So, what does all this have to do with the morality of taxes?   Absolutely nothing, of course.

Libertarians object to any taxes when the government takes our money or property by coercion.


I've already explained to you how government withholding money for taxes can be reconciled. In a nutshell, it's not the taxpayer's money to begin with.

And it's obviously completely legitimate and necessary in order to run any country.

Your problem is bad government and possibly the 'amount' of taxes that are collected. Also, the way the tax burden isn't being shared by the wealthy in the US.

The poor people are at close to the breaking point at which theft and other crime will spiral out of control. The only thing that holds them under government control is their sense of patriotism that's been hammered into the heads of Americans.

Libertarians need to start talking about the inequities of the system. They can get on the bandwagon before the 'Progressives' and claim it for their own idea.

But they better do it very soon!
  
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Jeff
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Re: Reminder We dont post articles
Reply #34 - Aug 9th, 2018 at 1:08pm
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SkyChief wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 11:42am:


Are you familiar with Pollock vs Farmers' Loan and Trust Co [1895]?  No?  It basically found that direct taxes were unconstitutional because they violated the provision that direct taxes be apportioned.

What the Pollock decision actually held was that taxing the profit Pollock made by renting out carriages could not be done without apportionment, because they agreed with Pollock who claimed that their was no sense in having carriages if you couldn't rent them out, and that taxing carriages was a Direct tax, therefore taxing profit derived from the carriages must also be Direct.

Prior to this foolish decision, it had always been held that taxing profits derived from the use of property was Indirect, and the Pollock decision has since been overturned piecemeal.

Apportioned Direct taxes have always been legal.

The tax that Pollock protested was an Indirect tax on his profits. He claimed taxing his profit was a Direct tax, and that the specific tax in question was not apportioned, and the S.Ct. agreed, wrongly.

Perhaps it was all a set-up in order to demonstrate a "need" for the 16th Amendment, which could them be interpreted to allow taxing wages and salaries without apportionment?

Even that fails, because it is not the form of the tax that controls it's legality under the Constitution, but it's actual substance and effect, and that's what must be examined in order to determine if any tax laid on wages and salaries is Direct or Indirect.
« Last Edit: Aug 9th, 2018 at 4:22pm by Jeff »  
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Jeff
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Re: Reminder We dont post articles
Reply #35 - Aug 9th, 2018 at 1:12pm
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SkyChief wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 11:42am:
Libertarians object to any taxes when the government takes our money or property by coercion.
That is not true. Most libertarians support taxation for national defense, police, courts and jails. Most even support local property taxes to pay for schools.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Reminder We dont post articles
Reply #36 - Aug 9th, 2018 at 3:12pm
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Quote:
I've already explained to you how government withholding money for taxes can be reconciled. In a nutshell, it's not the taxpayer's money to begin with.




I LOVE it!!   too funny!!   

Funnier than this:

Quote:

So if the worker fails to pay the government's portion then he's a thief.
  
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SicklersDink
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Re: Reminder We dont post articles
Reply #37 - Aug 9th, 2018 at 3:19pm
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I see that you've worked through your shame and uncertainty of posting the laughing man/woman cartoons! Let's see now whether or not it's been a good decision?

Or will it be your last ditch effort because of your frustration over having your ass kicked and being marginalized by everybody on this forum?

If it helps you then by all means keep doing it!

I guess it's an admission by you that I am controlling you, no matter what you decide. It sort of makes your point for you in a similar way that burnsred makes his point for himself. Not allowing himself to make any point!  Embarrassed
  
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Jeff
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Re: Reminder We dont post articles
Reply #38 - Aug 9th, 2018 at 3:50pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 9:40am:
Yes, it is.  I don't know if you're being sarcastic but taxes are always theft.  At no time does the government have the moral right to use force to take property.
But it has the legal right to collect taxes if the people have constituted a government and granted it that power, with limits, to be used only for specific purposes, like the Founders of America did with the Constitution.

If you think a strictly limited grant of power from the people to serve purposes which they desire and which further a free, peaceful, civilized society is immoral, along with the 'taxes are always theft' idea, you are advocating anarchy, whether you realize it or not.
  
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SicklersDink
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Re: Reminder We dont post articles
Reply #39 - Aug 9th, 2018 at 4:03pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 3:50pm:
But it has the legal right to collect taxes if the people have constituted a government and granted it that power, with limits, to be used only for specific purposes, like the Founders of America did with the Constitution.

If you think a strictly limited grant of power from the people to serve purposes which they desire and which further a free, peaceful, civilized society is immoral, along with the 'taxes are always theft' idea, you are advocating anarchy, whether you realize it or not.

Kiss !!  Kiss
  
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