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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Reminder We dont post articles (Read 2553 times)
Jeff
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Re: Reminder We dont post articles
Reply #50 - Aug 10th, 2018 at 5:21pm
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Sometimes it's the best approach with you.

You misunderstand me Thingy.

I prefer that you just tell me what you think you mean.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Reminder We dont post articles
Reply #51 - Aug 10th, 2018 at 5:24pm
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Others are always visiting this forum and reading what is being said. That's indicative of some potential we can build on.
Not very many.

You can only hope that they are of the Elites who are trying to figure out how to save the world... And mostly deciding that some sort of war will be required. Cry Cry Cry Cry
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Reminder We dont post articles
Reply #52 - Aug 12th, 2018 at 9:38pm
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SkyChief wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 11:42am:
Well said, burns.

Are you familiar with Pollock vs Farmers' Loan and Trust Co [1895]?  No?  It basically found that direct taxes were unconstitutional because they violated the provision that direct taxes be apportioned.

The 16th Amendment torpedoed the Pollock ruling and gave the government "power" to seize incomes -   "from whatever source derived".

So, what does all this have to do with the morality of taxes?   Absolutely nothing, of course.

Libertarians object to any taxes when the government takes our money or property by coercion.


Thank you.  No, I'm not familiar with that ruling, and I thought you were going in a constitutionalist direction by bringing it up.

Bottom line is that functions of government that people want to fund will be funded.  If they don't want to fund it, then they don't want it.  If the people don't want to fund it but they are wrong to not want to fund it, they will pay the price, true enough. 

But how can one group of people claim that they know what is best for another group of people and therefore they have the "right" to use force to get that other group to pay for what is best for them? 

That question is rhetorical for you, but I'd love to read Taxmaster J's answer . . .


  

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Jeff
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Re: Reminder We dont post articles
Reply #53 - Aug 13th, 2018 at 5:51am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Aug 12th, 2018 at 9:38pm:
But how can one group of people claim that they know what is best for another group of people and therefore they have the "right" to use force to get that other group to pay for what is best for them? 



You mean can representative government work? The answer is yes, but it must be carefully designed so as to strictly limit what the government can do and what the government must do.

I know you prefer anarchy, and hope you realize anarchy always leads to some sort of authoritarian dictatorship.

BTW, the representative government designed by our Constitution doesn't allow just "one group of people" to decide. In it's pre-17th Amendment form, the state governments and the people's democratically elected Representatives and the President had to mostly agree before any money was spent or taxes levied, and the courts had to agree that the tax or expenditure was within the legitimate grant of power of the Constitution.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Reminder We dont post articles
Reply #54 - Aug 13th, 2018 at 11:19am
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Jeff wrote on Aug 13th, 2018 at 5:51am:
You mean can representative government work? The answer is yes, but it must be carefully designed so as to strictly limit what the government can do and what the government must do.

It wasn't a yes or no question.  burns asked:

Quote:
But how can one group of people claim that they know what is best for another group of people and therefore they have the "right" to use force to get that other group to pay for what is best for them? 

And you said "Yes"

I'm giving you the chance to answer his question directly.

I'm kinda curious, myself.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Reminder We dont post articles
Reply #55 - Aug 13th, 2018 at 4:18pm
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SkyChief wrote on Aug 13th, 2018 at 11:19am:
It wasn't a yes or no question.  burns asked:

And you said "Yes"

I'm giving you the chance to answer his question directly.

I'm kinda curious, myself.
I answered that yes, representative government can work because that's what I thought he was asking about, representative governments levying taxes, so I talked a bit about it being very important to strictly limit any government that is given the power to tax.

If you think I misunderstood Chief, tell me what he was really asking.

OK, I read it again and see the part about using the power of government to change people... I guess I glossed over it because who would expect such a question to be asked of libertarians?

Are you a libertarian?

Do you like "progressive" government  telling you what to do and not do?

It's a joke, right?
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Reminder We dont post articles
Reply #56 - Aug 13th, 2018 at 4:44pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 13th, 2018 at 4:18pm:
OK, I read it again and see the part about using the power of government to change people... I guess I glossed over it because who would expect such a question to be asked of libertarians?

Are you a libertarian?

Do you like "progressive" government  telling you what to do and not do?

It's a joke, right?

I don't think it was intended a joke.  burns said:

Snarky Sack wrote on Aug 12th, 2018 at 9:38pm:
That question is rhetorical for [Chief], but I'd love to read Taxmaster J's answer . . .


So I'll defer to burns at this time.  It's possible that your answer is sufficient (to him).
  
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Jeff
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Re: Reminder We dont post articles
Reply #57 - Aug 13th, 2018 at 4:52pm
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SkyChief wrote on Aug 13th, 2018 at 4:44pm:
I don't think it was intended a joke.  burns said:


So I'll defer to burns at this time.  It's possible that your answer is sufficient (to him).
If the answer seems lacking to you Chief, please feel free to tell me why, thanks.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Reminder We dont post articles
Reply #58 - Aug 13th, 2018 at 5:03pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 13th, 2018 at 4:52pm:
If the answer seems lacking to you Chief, please feel free to tell me why, thanks.

Sure.   Quick recap:

Snarky Sack wrote on Aug 12th, 2018 at 9:38pm:
But how can one group of people claim that they know what is best for another group of people and therefore they have the "right" to use force to get that other group to pay for what is best for them? 


Your response:

Jeff wrote on Aug 13th, 2018 at 5:51am:
[A]representative government must be carefully designed so as to strictly limit what the government can do and what the government must do.

The representative government designed by our Constitution doesn't allow just "one group of people" to decide. In it's pre-17th Amendment form, the state governments and the people's democratically elected Representatives and the President had to mostly agree before any money was spent or taxes levied, and the courts had to agree that the tax or expenditure was within the legitimate grant of power of the Constitution.


IMO, your answer is inadequate because you have only explained the legality and protocols of levying taxes on free citizens.

You failed to address the morality of it.  I think this is actually what burns was asking about.

Again, I'm not sure, so let's wait for burns' take on it.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Reminder We dont post articles
Reply #59 - Aug 13th, 2018 at 5:09pm
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SkyChief wrote on Aug 13th, 2018 at 5:03pm:
You failed to address the morality of it.  I think this is actually what burns was asking about.

I'll assume you are correct, that Red is asking about the morality of taxation. I have addressed this issue with him many times, I think.

Taxes that are authorized for national defense that keeps your country from being overrun and conquered by barbarians are not only moral, but necessary if you hope to retain and live in a civilized society.

Call me selfish... I don't want to spend my Golden Years fighting off barbarians; I'm happy to assign the task of keeping barbarians away to government and to pay taxes to enable them to do it.

I don't want to pay any taxes so my government can try to turn Afghanistan into Norway by force of arms.


  
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