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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) If I don't pay taxes, whose rights am I violating? (Read 349 times)
The Opposition
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Re: If I don't pay taxes, whose rights am I violating?
Reply #20 - Aug 9th, 2018 at 1:51pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 9:43am:
Yes, it certainly does.  The fact that you rationalize what you advocate doesn't change the fact that you advocate it.

Especially since you are so dismissive of my ideas to fund needed/wanted government services through voluntary transactions. 


"Taxation for what I want, because what I want is necessary, and I can't be expected to go without it, even if voluntarism won't fund it."

"You want taxation for universal health care?!?! Socialist!!! Monster!!! Aggression, I say!!! AGGRESSION!!!!"

...Said almost every libertarian, ever. Schools are necessary, you see, but there's no need for children to be alive while they attend them.

Nevermind the fact that there are books full of almost any information you could possibly want and you can get last year's textbooks for so cheap it's stupid.

The first semester of college I took, I had 16 credit hours and it wasn't enough. I quickly learnt that garbage cans are often the final resting place of textbooks when they're rotated out for the new edition. The bookstore won't buy 'em back. So they're worthless.

Not to actually curious minds though.

Oh wait! That's the problem! We can't let people learn on their own no matter how cheap it is! That would advantage actual geniuses and we can't possibly have that. We must have public schools, you see, to stop the geniuses from learning so that everyone will be equal.

Sorry, I forgot about that.

Hmm. Where do I get signed up to have thought-inhibiting sound waves implanted into my brain? It seems less cruel.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: If I don't pay taxes, whose rights am I violating?
Reply #21 - Aug 9th, 2018 at 1:57pm
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The Opposition wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 1:51pm:
"Taxation for what I want, because what I want is necessary, and I can't be expected to go without it, even if voluntarism won't fund it."

"You want taxation for universal health care?!?! Socialist!!! Monster!!! Aggression, I say!!! AGGRESSION!!!!"

...Said almost every libertarian, ever. Schools are necessary, you see, but there's no need for children to be alive while they attend them.

Nevermind the fact that there are books full of almost any information you could possibly want and you can get last year's textbooks for so cheap it's stupid.

The first semester of college I took, I had 16 credit hours and it wasn't enough. I quickly learnt that garbage cans are often the final resting place of textbooks when they're rotated out for the new edition. The bookstore won't buy 'em back. So they're worthless.

Not to actually curious minds though.

Oh wait! That's the problem! We can't let people learn on their own no matter how cheap it is! That would advantage actual geniuses and we can't possibly have that. We must have public schools, you see, to stop the geniuses from learning so that everyone will be equal.

Sorry, I forgot about that.

Hmm. Where do I get signed up to have thought-inhibiting sound waves implanted into my brain? It seems less cruel.
I certainly object to being taxed for the Dept. of Education and all the state level education bureaucracies and all the mandated courses of study and the mandated graduation requirements.

I simply agree with all the other people who think a civilized society is better achieved and maintained if all the children in a community have a chance to go to school. It makes for better communities. Call me selfish.
  
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SicklersDink
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Re: If I don't pay taxes, whose rights am I violating?
Reply #22 - Aug 9th, 2018 at 2:00pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 1:57pm:
I simply agree with all the other people who think a civilized society is better achieved and maintained if all the children in a community have a chance to go to school. It makes for better communities. Call me selfish.


Kiss I love you.  Kiss
  
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The Opposition
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Re: If I don't pay taxes, whose rights am I violating?
Reply #23 - Aug 9th, 2018 at 2:03pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 1:57pm:
I simply agree with all the other people who think a civilized society is better achieved and maintained if all the children in a community have a chance to go to school. It makes for better communities. Call me selfish.


I think school is better if the children who don't want to learn and are there to disrupt other children's learning simply aren't there.

You could call me selfish, if I actually advocated keeping them out or even letting them not go. But I don't.

I agree that everyone must be made equal and people like me should be tortured. So fund the public school with tax money. I'm being 100% serious when I say I don't care, because I do not give a shit what other people do.

You, however, are a hypocrite. When other people want a slice of that tax pie, to be used on the things they think make the community better, you tell them too bad, and that the free market is better for that.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: If I don't pay taxes, whose rights am I violating?
Reply #24 - Aug 9th, 2018 at 2:10pm
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The Opposition wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 2:03pm:
I think school is better if the children who don't want to learn and are there to disrupt other children's learning simply aren't there.

Schools used to enforce discipline, which is something that's good for children to learn. They also used to offer training in useful skills for those who weren't academically able. They also used to think a 9th grade education was plenty for people who were going to go out and work rather than continue in academic pursuits, but the idea was that you should at least be able to read, compose a coherent sentence and do simple math, because those things are helpful in almost any job.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: If I don't pay taxes, whose rights am I violating?
Reply #25 - Aug 9th, 2018 at 2:13pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 2:10pm:
able to read


Read what I wrote then. I'm agreeing with you. There should be public schools because everyone must have those skills.

Or whyever. I don't care. I don't think of taxes as my money. The government can use it as it pleases, and in this case that's to help the most people.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SicklersDink
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Re: If I don't pay taxes, whose rights am I violating?
Reply #26 - Aug 9th, 2018 at 2:26pm
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The Opposition wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 2:13pm:
Read what I wrote then. I'm agreeing with you. There should be public schools because everyone must have those skills.

Or whyever. I don't care. I don't think of taxes as my money. The government can use it as it pleases, and in this case that's to help the most people.


The thing is Oppo, you, me, and my boss are all slowly coming to agreement on 'social' responsibilities.

But what is holding back progress is attempts to find some areas of disagreement.

It's plain for all to see now Oppo, that libertarianism as it stand currently is a total train wreck. We all understand that if we apply some rational thinking but some like the Chief can't allow himself to do that.

You, me, and Jeff do that. But there's going to be denial because that's a big part of what makes anti-establishment libertarians tick.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: If I don't pay taxes, whose rights am I violating?
Reply #27 - Aug 9th, 2018 at 2:30pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 1:18pm:
Fine, I advocate taxation for national defense, police, courts and local schools.

I dismiss your idea that these things can be funded by voluntary donations because it's never happened anywhere, and human nature argues against it ever happening.
I said "voluntary transactions," not "voluntary donations."  A good libertarian government would have to convince people to voluntarily pay for its services by doing two things:  1)  making its services desirable and 2)  making access to those services contingent on having paid for them.  Just an example that pops into mind is the service of 911 operators.  Didn't always have them, so they are not a must.  There could be two ways to pay for them, either a small monthly fee on your phone bill for access or a large one time fee if you opted out of that.  If you choose not to pay either, you get a message to "please hang up and contact your needed service provider directly."

You may be thinking, 'but wait!  Without taxes/thievery, there would be no 911 to begin with.'  Actually, without private donations, there would be no 9/11:

Progress in the emergency response capabilities of the forty-four grant recipients was considerable. One of the most visible developments associated with the program was the expansion of the 911 emergency system. In 1973, only 11 percent of people in the areas supported by the Johnson Foundation program had access to 911, or some equivalent emergency phone number. By the program's end, in 1977, 95 percent of them did. These outcomes were not mirrored in the nation as a whole. In 1979, only 25 percent of the U.S. population was covered by 911 or its like. Even today, the 911 system is available to only 85 percent of the population. But progress in the Foundation's forty-four grant areas did serve as a model of the emergency phone number's effectiveness. In this way, Foundation dollars were the spur that encouraged subsequent federal support.


https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/infrastructure/news/a27114/911-emerg...

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Certainly, private schools exist, funded by tuition paid by the parents of students who can afford it, but communities all across America, especially those with large percentages of parents who can't afford to send their children to private schools, have decided that educating all of the children in the community is a goal worth paying taxes to achieve.


If so, then it is even more so a goal worth voluntarily contributing to.  Once one accepts the proposition that if a goal is worthy, it justifies theft, morality is out of the equation and pragmatism is the only consideration.  Even then, though, we see the failure of our public schools and we refuse to learn even that.


  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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Snarky Sack
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Re: If I don't pay taxes, whose rights am I violating?
Reply #28 - Aug 9th, 2018 at 2:39pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 1:57pm:
I certainly object to being taxed for the Dept. of Education and all the state level education bureaucracies and all the mandated courses of study and the mandated graduation requirements.
All those are the inevitable result of forced taxation.  You want to eliminate those things, stop forcing people to pay for them.  If people only paid for what they wanted and only got what they paid for, they would pay for education but no pay for education bureaucracies.   

In the frontier, people donated money, materials and time to build a school house and donated money to pay the stipend for the "schoolmarm," usually the wife of a town leader, not a hired spinster from the east as is so often depicted in fiction.  Often, the teacher simply donated the time, for the exact reasons that you state bellow to support your advocacy of stealing to pay for education.

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I simply agree with all the other people who think a civilized society is better achieved and maintained if all the children in a community have a chance to go to school. It makes for better communities. Call me selfish.

  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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Jeff
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Re: If I don't pay taxes, whose rights am I violating?
Reply #29 - Aug 9th, 2018 at 4:02pm
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The Opposition wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 2:13pm:
Read what I wrote then. I'm agreeing with you. There should be public schools because everyone must have those skills.

What I am saying is let local communities decide.

If nothing else works, all the poor people in a community could pool their resources and hire a teacher or two and start their own school.

I don't think they are currently allowed to do that without permission and jumping through hoops that require lawyers they can't afford.

Edit: Not everyone must have the basic skills of literacy and numeracy, but it's a good idea to have most of the people around you have them.

It will make my job easier! (Call me selfish...)
  
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