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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery (Read 949 times)
Snarky Sack
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How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery
Aug 23rd, 2018 at 3:58pm
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Government can be funded without resorting to violence and threats of violence.   When government provides a good or a service that people want/need, they will pay for it.  That is axiomatic because if they do not pay for it, they do not want/need it.  Unless they honestly are unable to pay for it in which case pointing a gun at them would make them magically able to pay so it would be a waste of effort.

Here are specific examples of how government can be funded absent theft:

Police: 

Individuals, apartment owners, neighborhood associations, business owners and corporations can contribute to the police for protection of their communities, their tenants, their workers.  If those organizations or individuals choose not to pay, police will not be actively patrolling their areas.  Police will respond anywhere in their jurisdiction to an emergency, but will be much more visible and much quicker to respond in areas that sponsor them.  Since they are government officials, police will not have the option to ignore people who don’t pay.  If their sponsors don’t like the idea of being freeloaded on, they can simply stop paying and get the minimal protection afforded freeloaders.

“But what if nobody pays?”

First of all, they will.  Keep in mind that under a non-aggressive system, they won’t be forced to give half of their earnings to government.  But they will understand that the actually useful parts of government will still require funding.  Individuals and groups of individuals up to and including international corporations give literally trillions of dollars voluntarily for things they find worthy.  What makes you think that will suddenly change when we finally stop our government from pointing guns at us?
But what if you’re wrong and they don’t pay?
Then they want/need/get police protection.  That’s the choice they made.  Are we children that we need government to tell us how to spend our allowance?

Military:

People who want to use safe sea lanes will contribute to the navy.  If they call out an SOS, they will be asked for a contributor ID number and pin.  If they don’t have one, they can make a one-time contribution for a single service.  The beauty of this is that even foreign ships would have to pay to get the protection they now enjoy free.

Courts:

Criminal courts can be funded at the same time as the police because the sponsors will have the same concerns.  Police don’t work without courts, so it’s all inclusive.  They will have to work hard to convince us that our money will be well-spent, but they can use the advertising dollars they are not putting into “click it or ticket,” and other such statist propaganda.

Civil courts can be funded at the time one signs a contract that might someday need be enforced in civil court.  Pay a fee, the contract is stamped and if you get gypped, don’t take the law into your own hands, you take ‘em to court!  No doubt some wise lenders/phone providers/landlords will realize that they can attract customers by offering to pay for the stamps themselves (and tacking the cost on the regular price).

If you want to be able to sue someone over a product, stores could offer such a stamp placed on the product and electronically recorded.  So when your lawyer files a lawsuit because those diet pills made your dick fall off, you have proof you paid for court protection.  Stores don’t want to be the middle man?  No problem.  Don’t shop there and some more cooperative merchant gets your business.

“But what if nobody pays?”

Then they don’t want/need/get court protection.  That’s the choice they made.  Are we children that we need government to tell us how to spend our allowance?
I could go on an on except that those are about the only services I can think of that are by necessity government functions.  Roads, maybe.  Hopefully I don’t need to explain to anyone but Taxmaster J how roads can be funded through tolls. 

I don’t oppose the government doing more such as offering health insurance, education, aid to the poor, etc.  But when it does those things, it should be just another competitor on the market with no ability to compel people to accept or pay for their services.  If people fund that voluntarily, then yay government.
  

"Taxes are morally justified theft" - Jeff
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Snarky Sack
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Re: How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery
Reply #1 - Aug 23rd, 2018 at 4:02pm
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Keep in mind that when I say "fund government," I don't mean the incredible mega-government our tax-funded government has evolved.  I'm talking about a much smaller version which can only grow though providing low-cost and efficient services.

  

"Taxes are morally justified theft" - Jeff
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Jeff
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Re: How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery
Reply #2 - Aug 23rd, 2018 at 4:06pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Aug 23rd, 2018 at 3:58pm:
Courts:

Criminal courts can be funded at the same time as the police because the sponsors will have the same concerns.  Police don’t work without courts, so it’s all inclusive.


How will it work? I saw my neighbor go in my garage and steal my chainsaw.

What do I do? Run me through it step by step, thanks.
  
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Jeff
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Re: How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery
Reply #3 - Aug 23rd, 2018 at 4:10pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Aug 23rd, 2018 at 3:58pm:
Military:

People who want to use safe sea lanes will contribute to the navy.  If they call out an SOS, they will be asked for a contributor ID number and pin.  If they don’t have one, they can make a one-time contribution for a single service.  The beauty of this is that even foreign ships would have to pay to get the protection they now enjoy free.


You assume there is a navy and it's primary job is to protect merchant shipping.

Would people want to have the navy track nuclear missile subs from Russia and China etc.?

Who would fund that, and how?
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery
Reply #4 - Aug 23rd, 2018 at 4:21pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 23rd, 2018 at 4:06pm:
How will it work? I saw my neighbor go in my garage and steal my chainsaw.

What do I do? Run me through it step by step, thanks.


Sure, but so I’m not wasting my time, let’s first let’s go through what would happen in that case under the current system in which you are forced at gunpoint to pay for police protection. 

You call 911 and tell them that your lawnmower is missing.  They take you name and address and say WTTE of, “I’ll send out a unit.”  You are hungry and have your phone in your hand so you order a Pizza.  You think, ‘Hey, I’ll offer our heroes in blue a slice.  But by the time police get there, the pizza has all been eaten because the pizza place has thirty-minutes or free while tax paid police have no such financial incentive.

Police show up, take a report and say they’ll let you know.  Your lawnmower gets put on a list sent to pawn shops and that’s pretty much it.

Agreed?
  

"Taxes are morally justified theft" - Jeff
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SkyChief
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Re: How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery
Reply #5 - Aug 23rd, 2018 at 6:51pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Aug 23rd, 2018 at 3:58pm:
   When government provides a good or a service that people want/need, they will pay for it. 

Since when did it become the job of government to provide "goods and services"?

It's government's job to respect and protect the rights of its citizens.   

Are we now "customers" of the government?
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery
Reply #6 - Aug 23rd, 2018 at 8:46pm
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SkyChief wrote on Aug 23rd, 2018 at 6:51pm:
Since when did it become the job of government to provide "goods and services"?

It's government's job to respect and protect the rights of its citizens.   

Are we now "customers" of the government? 


It's an interesting question and I'll answer it in another thread.
  

"Taxes are morally justified theft" - Jeff
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The Opposition
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Re: How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery
Reply #7 - Aug 23rd, 2018 at 11:50pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Aug 23rd, 2018 at 4:21pm:
tax paid police have no such financial incentive.


That's right, they don't. Ideally this is actually a really good thing.

They have no incentive to do anything. If most people are only good enough to care just slightly - to prefer punishing a robber to punishing an innocent - the police will do decent, if Post Office quality work.

This is actually how it used to work. Police officers were good people. They were regular people. The assumption that a regular person prefers to punish an aggressor or save an innocent was not a big one.

It is a very big assumption, now. The average person wants power over others, and does not care who is innocent or guilty. He cares what he can get, and that's all.

I don't think you can have a functional police force with this population, private or public.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Snarky Sack
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Re: How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery
Reply #8 - Aug 24th, 2018 at 11:59am
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The Opposition wrote on Aug 23rd, 2018 at 11:50pm:
That's right, they don't. Ideally this is actually a really good thing.

They have no incentive to do anything. If most people are only good enough to care just slightly - to prefer punishing a robber to punishing an innocent - the police will do decent, if Post Office quality work.

This is actually how it used to work. Police officers were good people. They were regular people. The assumption that a regular person prefers to punish an aggressor or save an innocent was not a big one.

It is a very big assumption, now. The average person wants power over others, and does not care who is innocent or guilty. He cares what he can get, and that's all.

I don't think you can have a functional police force with this population, private or public.


It will difficult to ever convince a tax-funded police force to be libertarian. Since 911, we have lauded anyone in uniform as a hero and after more than fifteen years, they seem to be believing it themselves.

On the other hand, because our laws are becoming more and more tangled messes that seem designed to make it impossible to follow them which makes everyone criminals.  Such laws give police power over everyone when they should only have power over people breaking the law.

So we have a population that respects law enforcement officers more than they respect they law so they do not insist that police not be above the law.

My fee-for-service police force would certainly respond to calls more quickly than bureaucrats with badges do.  But I’m don’t claim that police will respect rights any more than they do just because their salaries aren’t coming from stolen money. That change would have to come from elected libertarian police chiefs and sheriffs. 

  

"Taxes are morally justified theft" - Jeff
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Jeff
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Re: How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery
Reply #9 - Aug 24th, 2018 at 2:46pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Aug 24th, 2018 at 11:59am:
It will difficult to ever convince a tax-funded police force to be libertarian.

..................................................................

But I’m don’t claim that police will respect rights any more than they do just because their salaries aren’t coming from stolen money.
Individual police being held liable for violating people's rights is all that is needed, just the same as for non-police.

That won't necessarily make the individuals into libertarians, or police forces "libertarian" (whatever that might mean), but it will protect people's rights, which is why we have police.
  
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