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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery (Read 946 times)
Snarky Sack
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Re: How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery
Reply #10 - Aug 24th, 2018 at 3:03pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 24th, 2018 at 2:46pm:
"libertarian" (whatever that might mean)


I, now I see the problem.

"Libertarian," means that no one is allowed to use force on another person unless in self-defense, no matter how good a reason he or she believes she has.
  

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Re: How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery
Reply #11 - Aug 24th, 2018 at 3:10pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Aug 24th, 2018 at 3:03pm:
I, now I see the problem.

"Libertarian," means that no one is allowed to use force on another person unless in self-defense, no matter how good a reason he or she believes she has.
That will make it pretty hard for police to arrest suspected criminals who resist arrest... When the police are all "libertarian", murderers can just laugh and walk away from the police.
  
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Re: How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery
Reply #12 - Aug 24th, 2018 at 3:36pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 24th, 2018 at 3:10pm:
That will make it pretty hard for police to arrest suspected criminals who resist arrest... When the police are all "libertarian", murderers can just laugh and walk away from the police.


Nice try, but police use of force is part of self-defense, because libertarian police will only be defending our rights, not arresting us for not collecting the gasoline tax.

  

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Re: How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery
Reply #13 - Aug 24th, 2018 at 3:44pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Aug 24th, 2018 at 3:36pm:
Nice try, but police use of force is part of self-defense, because libertarian police will only be defending our rights, not arresting us for not collecting the gasoline tax.

It's not the police that will come after you when you don't pay taxes.

But anyway, how will NC collect all those tolls/fees? If they do it with modern magic that tracks where your car goes at all times, and then send you a bill for your road use, and you don't pay, it will be the police who show up with a summons for you to appear in court.
  
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Re: How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery
Reply #14 - Aug 24th, 2018 at 5:02pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 24th, 2018 at 3:44pm:
It's not the police that will come after you when you don't pay taxes.
Then why would anyone pay them if no force is used against non-payers?

Quote:
But anyway, how will NC collect all those tolls/fees? If they do it with modern magic that tracks where your car goes at all times, and then send you a bill for your road use, and you don't pay, it will be the police who show up with a summons for you to appear in court.


At least that argument makes sense. So NC's government will have a choice.  They can use the magical sensors that automatically charge your pre-loaded account, knowing that a certain percent of drivers will try to beat the system.  That's how we do it in the Houston area and the toll road authority brings in buckets of cash.  More than 800 BILLion dollars in 2017 alone.  They could use live people operating toll gates which they used to do, but that was more expensive than the money they were saving by physically blocking freeloaders.

Which is an important point for those who support the  lame argument that it's OK to take money at gunpoint because we have a right not to be freeloaded on.  Sometimes the guns and ammo cost more than the occasional person who gets over.  No human transaction is without some amount of fraud or other losses to dishonesty.  Paying people to point guns at us to make us pay even more is not a morally defensible way to prevent that, not to mention that even with all those gunsels protecting our right not be freeloaded on, it still happens.

It happens even more with taxation, in fact, because forced taxation means more money is available to be taken by the freeloaders.

If you don't care that it costs more than it saves, you could always have police arrest people on the toll roads who don't have an account on a trespassing charge since trespassing is aggression.  But you'd really have to be more interested in having police use force than in increasing revenue to do that.




  

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Re: How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery
Reply #15 - Aug 25th, 2018 at 6:47am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Aug 24th, 2018 at 5:02pm:
Then why would anyone pay them if no force is used against non-payers?



First they ad non-payment penalties and interest, then they garnish your wages and seize you accounts. Only if it isn't possible to get the money they say you owe in those ways will they pursue criminal charges. Then the police will come.
  
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Re: How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery
Reply #16 - Aug 25th, 2018 at 6:59am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Aug 24th, 2018 at 5:02pm:
At least that argument makes sense. So NC's government will have a choice.  They can use the magical sensors that automatically charge your pre-loaded account, knowing that a certain percent of drivers will try to beat the system. 
I thought you were talking about making every road a pay-as-you use it road, and I'm interested in secondary roads, which there are far more of than those few easily tolled freeways you're talking about. Secondary roads aren't limited access. At some times of the year, farmers drive back and forth over short sections of secondary roads getting to and from their fields, and I thought you were interested in having people pay for what they use, market style.

The truth is, gasoline taxes for road construction, maintenance and repair is a good practical way to provide roads for everybody to use, and toll roads and toll lanes are solutions for high use high speed main arteries that get congested at rush hour.

Another truth is that using local property taxes to fund police and courts and jails is also a good workable solution, and you haven't yet told me how your proposed fee-for-service courts and police will work.

Give it a try- After I see my neighbor steal my chainsaw, what do I do and how much will it cost?


  
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Re: How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery
Reply #17 - Aug 25th, 2018 at 10:49am
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Jeff wrote on Aug 24th, 2018 at 3:44pm:
It's not the police that will come after you when you don't pay taxes.


Jeff wrote on Aug 24th, 2018 at 3:44pm:
you don't pay, it will be the police who show up with a summons for you to appear in court.


Jeff wrote on Aug 25th, 2018 at 6:47am:
Only if it isn't possible to get the money they say you owe in those ways will they pursue criminal charges. Then the police will come.


Make up your mind, Jeff.
  

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Snarky Sack
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Re: How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery
Reply #18 - Aug 25th, 2018 at 10:59am
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Jeff wrote on Aug 25th, 2018 at 6:47am:
First they ad non-payment penalties and interest, then they garnish your wages and seize you accounts. Only if it isn't possible to get the money they say you owe in those ways will they pursue criminal charges. Then the police will come.


Hm.  When they took out the toll booths and made it "EZ-Tag Only" I freeloaded for a couple of days because I didn't have time to get the sensor.  None of that happened to me.  I just got a letter in the mail that said I owed $120 for trespassing (they didn't use that word, but that's what it was), but . . . if I apply online or go to the EZ Tag store within thirty days, they would drop it.  Since it only costs $60 to get the tag and the toll bridge I use saves me at least fifteen minutes each way, I was happy to pay.

But what if I had ignored the letter and nothing happened?  Yes, Jeff, I got away with "freeloading."  I violated GEMorton's and your "right not to be freeloaded on."  But under your forced tax system our right not to be freeloaded on is violated in countless ways for far more money than a two dollar toll.  The reason we can be forced to be freeloaded on is that we are forced to pay.  If I'm not forced to pay for the tolls, but I choose to, I'm not being forced to support the freeloaders because I knew that would happen when I made my choice. 
  

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Re: How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery
Reply #19 - Aug 25th, 2018 at 11:49am
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Jeff wrote on Aug 23rd, 2018 at 4:06pm:
How will it work? I saw my neighbor go in my garage and steal my chainsaw.

What do I do? Run me through it step by step, thanks.


[Snarky Sack wrote on Aug 23rd, 2018 at 4:21pm:
Sure, but so I’m not wasting my time, let’s first let’s go through what would happen in that case under the current system in which you are forced at gunpoint to pay for police protection. 

You call 911 and tell them that your lawnmower is missing.  They take you name and address and say WTTE of, “I’ll send out a unit.”  You are hungry and have your phone in your hand so you order a Pizza.  You think, ‘Hey, I’ll offer our heroes in blue a slice.  But by the time police get there, the pizza has all been eaten because the pizza place has thirty-minutes or free while tax paid police have no such financial incentive.

Police show up, take a report and say they’ll let you know.  Your lawnmower gets put on a list sent to pawn shops and that’s pretty much it.

Agreed?


Jeff wrote on Aug 23rd, 2018 at 4:06pm:



Ok.  I'll take your silence for agreement that that's what would happen if someone stole your lawnmower.

Jeff wrote on Aug 25th, 2018 at 6:59am:
Another truth is that using local property taxes to fund police and courts and jails is also a good workable solution, and you haven't yet told me how your proposed fee-for-service courts and police will work.

Give it a try- After I see my neighbor steal my chainsaw, what do I do and how much will it cost?




Same for your chainsaw.

In my voluntary funding of police it would be roughly the same I  guess.  Different police chiefs would run their forces differently.  The big difference is that when you call, they'll ask you for your id number and then say, "Oh, I see that you belong to a neighborhood association that sponsors an officer.  She'll be out to see you as soon as possible.  Estimated wait time is about forty minutes, but that can change if an emergency occurs while in route. "

If I were the chief, I would likely just have my officers take down the information by phone and ask you to send in a picture of  the stolen item and it's serial number and have one detective make rounds to the pawn shops like once a week.   And hey!  If that force happens to have a hardware store as one of its sponsors, they can say, "By the way, Cooper's Hardware is having a sale on padlocks.  They're a great way to deter this kind of thing."

One thing that might happen if a police chief was wiley enough, is that he could have an officer dedicated to people who call in reports of petty theft.  That officer would give describe the standard procedure and then offer a one time upgrade to assign a detective to your case who will search for your lawnmower like it's the hope diamond.  He might say, "I know it sounds backwards, spending two thousand dollars looking for a two-hundred dollar chainsaw.   But we need to deter these people from aggressing on us and taking away our property rights.  Are you with me on that, Mr. Jeff?  We need some heroes.* 

I know  that sounds a little snarky, but that's my method for replying to people who ask questions when they haven't really thought them through.     I'm starting a thread that explored the subject of what services we can realistically expect from a libertarian government.

*A cop on the phone actually said, "we need some heroes" when he was trying to get me to donate to his benevolent association.   Roll Eyes
  

"Taxes are morally justified theft" - Jeff
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