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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery (Read 1590 times)
GEMorton
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Re: How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery
Reply #120 - Sep 6th, 2018 at 8:47am
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Jeff wrote on Sep 6th, 2018 at 6:53am:
When you said this-

"He will pay taxes according to the value of the benefits he receives from government."

- I had a hard time reconciling it with your saying that taxes for such things should be apportioned.

Which is it?


I'm not sure why you're confused. Those two statements say the same thing, i.e., taxes should be apportioned in accordance with the value of benefits each taxpayer receives from government.
  
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Jeff
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Re: How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery
Reply #121 - Sep 6th, 2018 at 10:11am
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GEMorton wrote on Sep 6th, 2018 at 8:47am:
I'm not sure why you're confused. Those two statements say the same thing, i.e., taxes should be apportioned in accordance with the value of benefits each taxpayer receives from government.
Are you saying that everyone should pay the exact same amount in taxes? That would be an apportioned tax.

It doesn't sound like it, it sounds like people must buy government services (with taxes) based on how much/many government service(s) they receive and the relative value of the services.

We agree that everyone benefits from having police, and everyone benefits when a kidnapper is caught and prosecuted, but I believe I benefit more if it's my child that is rescued and returned to me, or if a car thief is caught and my stolen car is returned to me... Do I then have to pay more "taxes"?
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery
Reply #122 - Sep 6th, 2018 at 10:44am
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Jeff wrote on Sep 6th, 2018 at 10:11am:
Are you saying that everyone should pay the exact same amount in taxes? That would be an apportioned tax.

It doesn't sound like it, it sounds like people must buy government services (with taxes) based on how much/many government service(s) they receive and the relative value of the services.

We agree that everyone benefits from having police, and everyone benefits when a kidnapper is caught and prosecuted, but I believe I benefit more if it's my child that is rescued and returned to me, or if a car thief is caught and my stolen car is returned to me... Do I then have to pay more "taxes"?


It's better if people voluntarily pay in advance.  That's how we do it now, only it isn't voluntary.

I know you think kidnapping a child is pretty cut and dried.  But what about a fourteen year old girl who is "kidnapped" by her twenty year old boyfriend?If that's your daughter, I don't what to have to pay for any investigation because I know that if police find her and bring her back, she'll likely be "kidnapped" again (not meaning Jeff's daughter, but just anyone's but mine).    If that's my daughter, I don't even wait for police.  I would notify them, but I don't expect any real action (under the current system in which police think I'm getting their services for free).

If I have a four year old, and I get a ransom note, then I do want police involved.  In that case, I'd much rather have police who think of me as a customer because I voluntarily paid for their salaries than current police who think I'm a pain in the ass for not realizing that I should just pay the ransom and rely on the kindness of the kidnappers.

It's very common for people with kidnapped children to hire private investigators because police have neither the time, the training, nor the inclination to find a kidnapped child.  Too busy writing tickets for going 59 in a 55 zone.

Would you also advocate vouchers for people who want to use PI's because police are incompetent?




  

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Jeff
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Re: How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery
Reply #123 - Sep 6th, 2018 at 11:02am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 6th, 2018 at 10:44am:
Would you also advocate vouchers for people who want to use PI's because police are incompetent?




No.

I don't think schools should be a government monopoly, but I do think governments should have a monopoly on police powers.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery
Reply #124 - Sep 6th, 2018 at 1:16pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 6th, 2018 at 11:02am:
No.

I don't think schools should be a government monopoly, but I do think governments should have a monopoly on police powers.


But you believe that people should be robbed to pay for schools and they should have some of the loot given back in the form of vouchers if they don't like the schools for their kids.

Investigations aren't a government monopoly, anyone can investigate.  Why not give vouchers to dads who won't accept that their daughter is a runaway but give vouchers to parents who won't accept that their kids are just not book-smart?

  

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Snarky Sack
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Re: How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery
Reply #125 - Sep 6th, 2018 at 1:17pm
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Double again, drat!
  

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The Opposition
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Re: How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery
Reply #126 - Sep 6th, 2018 at 1:33pm
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GEMorton wrote on Sep 5th, 2018 at 10:28pm:
Yes, you do. For each murderer caught your risk of being murdered is reduced. You benefit from that risk reduction every day. You are consuming a portion of the benefits supplied by the criminal justice system.


Just out of curiosity, what if I already pay protection money to one of the local gangs? And what if they're taking enough that they have a vested interest in protecting their cash cow, so I already get the protection with or without the police?

GEMorton wrote on Sep 5th, 2018 at 10:16pm:
It isn't. "Natural" there only means a good supplied by Nature. Natural commons are not unowned; they are owned by all who use them. They could only be privatized by buying out the shares of all who would thereafter be excluded.


I suggested before that this be applied to deer. They're not anyone's deer; they roam over incredibly large areas. Figure out how many extras the herds produce each year. Everyone owns a share of them.

All you have to do to hunt a deer is buy out enough other people of their share of deer for that year.

Let's say we discover that each person owns a tenth of a deer, because there are 100 people and the herd produces 10 extra deer per year. The government could have a website where people who don't want to hunt could sell their shares of deer to those who do.

In extremely underpopulated areas, a person might have enough shares of deer to hunt without buying them off anyone.

Or you could sell your deer shares in perpetuity throughout your natural life. This juicy tidbit is what the hunter really wants, since if he gets enough of these, he gets hunting permits every year.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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Jeff
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Re: How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery
Reply #127 - Sep 6th, 2018 at 3:50pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 6th, 2018 at 1:16pm:
But you believe that people should be robbed to pay for schools...
I believe people have the right to form governments and grant them powers to do things they want done, as long as the granted powers relate to the purpose of creating the government, and I happen to think that educating all the children in the community, or giving them the opportunity to be educated, is one way to preserve individual liberty.
  
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Jeff
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Re: How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery
Reply #128 - Sep 6th, 2018 at 3:52pm
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 6th, 2018 at 1:33pm:
Just out of curiosity, what if I already pay protection money to one of the local gangs? And what if they're taking enough that they have a vested interest in protecting their cash cow, so I already get the protection with or without the police?


Do they have to kill innocent people to protect you?
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery
Reply #129 - Sep 6th, 2018 at 4:19pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 6th, 2018 at 3:50pm:
I believe people have the right to form governments and grant them powers to do things they want done, as long as the granted powers relate to the purpose of creating the government,


That justification can fit anything anyone who forms a government thinks it should do.  Including confiscating factories and farms and homes.

As long as "pretty much everyone agrees" there can be no moral reason not to do that, according to your theory that people can grant government the power to do things that the people themselves would not have the right to do.

  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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