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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery (Read 1592 times)
Jeff
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Re: How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery
Reply #130 - Sep 6th, 2018 at 5:16pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 6th, 2018 at 4:19pm:
That justification...

It's my belief, and the belief of most Americans. I'm not trying to justify it. I don't need to.

You can keep trying to discredit all the foundational ideas of America and keep trying to foment anarchic uprisings between tribes you've worked hard to create and sustain...

What's that to me?

I'm back on Voltar in Queen Teenie's Palace, relaxing with the Palace Catamites and letting them entertain me with the latest news about Earth and the Voltarian CIA plans for that hapless planet. Grin
  
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Jeff
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Re: How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery
Reply #131 - Sep 7th, 2018 at 6:45am
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Here's the other side of the story, how to pretend you can fund government by robbing only the rich-

http://reason.com/blog/2018/09/06/cynthia-nixon-has-no-idea-how-much-new-y?utm_m...
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery
Reply #132 - Sep 7th, 2018 at 9:45am
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Jeff wrote on Sep 7th, 2018 at 6:45am:
Here's the other side of the story, how to pretend you can fund government by robbing only the rich-

http://reason.com/blog/2018/09/06/cynthia-nixon-has-no-idea-how-much-new-y?utm_m...


Quote:
To pay for all these policies, Nixon is looking at soaking the rich. Her #fixthesubway plan would rely in part on a millionaire's tax. The Medicare-for-all bill Nixon's endorsed would require high income earners and their employers to spend thousands more on healthcare than they currently do. And her $7.4 billion education plan? Fat cats will be on the hook for that one, too.

"That sounds expensive," Nixon said of her education plan to the Wall Street Journal. "You know what? It is, and it should be. We can do it by requiring that millionaires, and billionaires and corporations, who this economy has blessed, pay their fair share for all of our children."


Income taxes was sold as a soak-the-rich plan also.
Quote:
"Though she has made imposing a millionaire's tax to help fund education and the subways a central theme to her campaign, Nixon, who is a first-time candidate with no state government experience, did not know the top income tax rate in New York, which is 8.82%. She also couldn't say how much of the income taxes raised for the state budget comes from millionaires—it's 40%—or offer a ballpark figure.

For someone who has made squeezing more money out of high income earners the lynchpin of her progressive campaign, this is a shocking and telling display of ignorance. It reveals an unfounded belief—not uncommon among many on the progressive left—that all that is needed to erect a Nordic-style social welfare system is higher and more progressive income taxes.


That's a valid criticism, but not just of people like Cynthia Nixon and the progressive left.

I've never met a person who advocates forcible taxation who has ever thought through how much the taxes should be and who should pay them.  For all you talk of "carefully limited" taxes, the only limits you've proposed are on the types of taxes, not the amount of taxes.

Even when I asked flat out what, if any, limit should placed on the amount of taxes an individual must pay, you took days to give a very vague answer.  That tells me that you never thought about the power to tax being limited by amount or percent to be taxed.

If you were running for whatever taxing authority sets tax rates for the funding of public schools in your area, you could be asked, "what is the most you would expect any homeowner to pay in order to fund this school-for-all idea of yours?"  If so, you would come off equally as foolish as Cynthia did but without the cuteness.  For the same reason:  taxing to pay for school seems like such a great idea to you, that the details don't matter.

Why is it any dumber because Nixon wants to fund her medical-care-for-all idea and hasn't thought it through?  Not thinking things through is the cornerstone of statist thought.   


  

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GEMorton
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Re: How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery
Reply #133 - Sep 7th, 2018 at 1:56pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 6th, 2018 at 10:11am:
Are you saying that everyone should pay the exact same amount in taxes? That would be an apportioned tax.


No. "Apportioned" does not imply "equal." It merely means allocated according to some rule.

"Definition of apportion
apportioned; apportioning play  \-sh(ə-)niŋ\
transitive verb
: to divide and share out according to a plan;"

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/apportion

However, the head tax (which pays for protection of life and liberty) would indeed be equal for all persons. The asset tax (which pays for protection of property) would scale according to the value of the property.

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It doesn't sound like it, it sounds like people must buy government services (with taxes) based on how much/many government service(s) they receive and the relative value of the services.


Yes.

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We agree that everyone benefits from having police, and everyone benefits when a kidnapper is caught and prosecuted, but I believe I benefit more if it's my child that is rescued and returned to me, or if a car thief is caught and my stolen car is returned to me... Do I then have to pay more "taxes"?


That's a good question, and it could be done either way. I.e., everyone pays for the overall reduction in risks, but pays a service fee in addition if the police assist him personally (which would be added to the offender's restitution obligation). Or it could work like an insurance risk pool, with all services covered in advance.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery
Reply #134 - Sep 7th, 2018 at 2:44pm
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GEMorton wrote on Sep 7th, 2018 at 1:56pm:
No. "Apportioned" does not imply "equal." It merely means allocated according to some rule.

"Definition of apportion
apportioned; apportioning play  \-sh(ə-)niŋ\
transitive verb
: to divide and share out according to a plan;"

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/apportion

However, the head tax (which pays for protection of life and liberty) would indeed be equal for all persons.



Indeed it would not.  People too poor to pay taxes would pay nothing.  People who evaded taxes would pay nothing.

People who pay taxes would either be forced to pony up for the deadbeats, or they would be forced to accept less service than they are paying for.


  

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Jeff
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Re: How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery
Reply #135 - Sep 7th, 2018 at 4:34pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 7th, 2018 at 9:45am:
I've never met a person who advocates forcible taxation who has ever thought through how much the taxes should be and who should pay them.
The most common libertarian position is that the government should be severely and strictly limited, which will drastically reduce its costs.

Some amounts you might hear from libertarians are "the absolute minimum", or maybe "couldn't enough be raised by a low uniform tariff on imports?"

Who should pay taxes according to the Constitutional law and its theory is, everyone that can afford to pay anything at all should be forced to pay, so as to focus their minds on their Representatives in Washington City.

Edit: I'm interpolating, but I think I'm getting it right...
  
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GEMorton
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Re: How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery
Reply #136 - Sep 7th, 2018 at 6:21pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 7th, 2018 at 2:44pm:
Indeed it would not.  People too poor to pay taxes would pay nothing.  People who evaded taxes would pay nothing.

People who pay taxes would either be forced to pony up for the deadbeats, or they would be forced to accept less service than they are paying for.


Yes, and yes. There is no getting blood from a stone. No moral or political theory can require doing the impossible.
  
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Jeff
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Re: How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery
Reply #137 - Sep 7th, 2018 at 6:35pm
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GEMorton wrote on Sep 7th, 2018 at 1:56pm:
No. "Apportioned" does not imply "equal."
As it is used in the Constitution, it means equal.

Equal representation being when each representative represents an equal number of people, and therefore also that an equal number of people must pay the same amount of tax, and the only fair way to do that is to say that each individual must pay the same amount.

Otherwise you get into "leveling" by making some people pay more tax than others.
  
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Jeff
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Re: How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery
Reply #138 - Sep 7th, 2018 at 6:39pm
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GEMorton wrote on Sep 7th, 2018 at 1:56pm:
That's a good question, and it could be done either way. I.e., everyone pays for the overall reduction in risks, but pays a service fee in addition if the police assist him personally (which would be added to the offender's restitution obligation). Or it could work like an insurance risk pool, with all services covered in advance.
Or we could use property taxes and feel good about anybody and everybody getting police and court services when they need them, because it works pretty well to keep the barbarians under control and makes it so that no one is priced out of police protection or justice.

That's a different issue from apportioning taxes which act on wages and salaries, what working people get in exchange for working.

The idea is to severely limit that to a very small amount, so that people working for not much money don't have to pay much, just that they have to pay something, so as to keep their minds focused on their Representatives and how much they are willing to tax working people.

The Constitutional limits on the taxing power are quite clever. Too bad "progressives" won't follow the law.
  
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GEMorton
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Re: How to Fund Government without Resorting to Robbery
Reply #139 - Sep 7th, 2018 at 8:22pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 7th, 2018 at 6:35pm:
As it is used in the Constitution, it means equal.


No, it doesn't:

"Representatives shall be apportioned among the several states according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each state, excluding Indians not taxed. "
---14th Amendment

". . . according to their respective numbers" is the rule adopted for that case, not part of the meaning of the word "apportion." Compare, "dividends shall be apportioned according to the number of shares held by each stockholder."

  
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