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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) "By the Last Period, their Medication has Worn Off" (Read 494 times)
Snarky Sack
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Re: "By the Last Period, their Medication has Worn Off"
Reply #20 - Aug 28th, 2018 at 9:54am
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Jeff wrote on Aug 28th, 2018 at 7:57am:
You should read section 2a of this biography. It's not very long, but if you can understand what Popper is saying, maybe we can talk further...

https://www.iep.utm.edu/pop-sci/


I don't know if it was skychief or oppo who chided you for posting about positive vs. negative rights as if you thought we didn't already know that.  This seems to be another case of that.

What is it you wanted to talk about?  That general relativity is more scientific than psychoanalysis?   If that is news to you, you should read more often.

Yes, general relativity is falsifiable and psychoanalysis is not.  But in research psychology, we constantly come up with falsifiable theories and test them in ways that either falsify them or fail to falsify them and therefore provide evidence that they are more likely than not to be true.  That's what the science of research psychology is.

For example, suppose I had a theory that students learn better if they work in pairs rather than in threes and fours that are commonly thought to be the best way to learn.  I would randomly divide a sample of same-grade/age students,  place one group into threes and fours and place one group in pairs.  Then I would teach each group an identical lesson and measure their learning of it through a pretest and a post-test.  Then I would apply statistical modeling to determine if there is a significant difference in the learning.

Please explain how that is not science. 


  

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Jeff
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Re: "By the Last Period, their Medication has Worn Off"
Reply #21 - Aug 28th, 2018 at 2:55pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Aug 28th, 2018 at 9:54am:
I don't know if it was skychief or oppo who chided you for posting about positive vs. negative rights as if you thought we didn't already know that.  This seems to be another case of that.

What is it you wanted to talk about?  That general relativity is more scientific than psychoanalysis?   If that is news to you, you should read more often.

Yes, general relativity is falsifiable and psychoanalysis is not.


When you say that a set of behaviors taken together is a mental disorder and name it ADHD, that can't be challenged. You simply created a "mental disorder" by definition.

What the essential is, is a claim that people who behave in one way are "normal" and people who behave in other ways have mental disorders.

When homosexuality was proclaimed to be a "mental disorder", how could that have been falsified? The "disorder" was the 'evidence' used to prove that a "disorder of the mind" existed.

In short, as I thought the article made clear, things that are not falsifiable are not science.

I believe that God exists. That is not falsifiable, and not science.
  
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Re: "By the Last Period, their Medication has Worn Off"
Reply #22 - Aug 28th, 2018 at 3:06pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Aug 28th, 2018 at 9:54am:
For example, suppose I had a theory that students learn better if they work in pairs rather than in threes and fours that are commonly thought to be the best way to learn.  I would randomly divide a sample of same-grade/age students,  place one group into threes and fours and place one group in pairs.  Then I would teach each group an identical lesson and measure their learning of it through a pretest and a post-test.  Then I would apply statistical modeling to determine if there is a significant difference in the learning.

Please explain how that is not science. 


People learn different things in different ways. Some subjects might be better taught in large groups, some individually, and combinations of pairs or threesomes or foursomes might work differently for different children learning different subjects.

You can pretty much design that sort of experiment to get any results you want. The age of the children is a changing variable too. There are ages when a male-female learning team would probably usually fail, and other ages where it might work best, again, probably depending on the subject.

Most experiments such as you propose aren't repeatable.

If "the best way to learn" is in groups of three or four students, and that's what schools are doing, the results should show improvement over the results of one teacher teaching a room full of20-30 students the same lesson at the same time, they way it used to be done and still is in many places. I don't see better results. That's not proof of anything.
  
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Re: "By the Last Period, their Medication has Worn Off"
Reply #23 - Aug 28th, 2018 at 3:17pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 28th, 2018 at 3:06pm:
People learn different things in different ways. Some subjects might be better taught in large groups, some individually, and combinations of pairs or threesomes or foursomes might work differently for different children learning different subjects.

You can pretty much design that sort of experiment to get any results you want. The age of the children is a changing variable too. There are ages when a male-female learning team would probably usually fail, and other ages where it might work best, again, probably depending on the subject.

Most experiments such as you propose aren't repeatable.

If "the best way to learn" is in groups of three or four students, and that's what schools are doing, the results should show improvement over the results of one teacher teaching a room full of20-30 students the same lesson at the same time, they way it used to be done and still is in many places. I don't see better results. That's not proof of anything.


Ok, I made one last attempt to explain how research works in fields other than physics and you seem stuck on insisting that people be tested just like steel I beams.  Getting an idea in one's head that cannot be shaken loose is very common in a person on the AU spectrum so it isn't surprising.

  

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Re: "By the Last Period, their Medication has Worn Off"
Reply #24 - Aug 28th, 2018 at 3:53pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Aug 28th, 2018 at 3:17pm:
Ok, I made one last attempt to explain how research works in fields other than physics and you seem stuck on insisting that people be tested just like steel I beams.  Getting an idea in one's head that cannot be shaken loose is very common in a person on the AU spectrum so it isn't surprising.

You seem to have a lot of stubborn ideas yourself Red.

I know how people can be subjected to scientific study, and that things can and have been learned about humans and how they interact and what they do in different controlled situations. I know that scientific methods are used, data carefully collected, observations carefully recorded and conclusions drawn.

None of that has any bearing on the ability of people studying the minds of people to declare that homosexuality is a mental disorder. That was a pronouncement from authority, like the Pope does, not a scientific conclusion reached through scientific study.

ADHD is no different. Yes, observation will show you that some children daydream and are restless and have trouble focusing on tasks assigned to them or are resistant to any authority over them. Anyone who studies children will see some like that. Not all of them will exhibit all of the listed behaviors, some only one.

There have always been children like that.

There is no scientific basis that justifies calling it a mental disorder. It is normal for some young human brains to be that way. Time, and patience and teaching and discipline will help almost all of them to learn to control themselves.
  
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Re: "By the Last Period, their Medication has Worn Off"
Reply #25 - Aug 28th, 2018 at 4:02pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 28th, 2018 at 3:53pm:
You seem to have a lot of stubborn ideas yourself Red.

I know how people can be subjected to scientific study, and that things can and have been learned about humans and how they interact and what they do in different controlled situations. I know that scientific methods are used, data carefully collected, observations carefully recorded and conclusions drawn.


Awesome!  It finally sunk in.

Quote:
None of that has any bearing on the ability of people studying the minds of people to declare that homosexuality is a mental disorder. That was a pronouncement from authority, like the Pope does, not a scientific conclusion reached through scientific study.

ADHD is no different. Yes, observation will show you that some children daydream and are restless and have trouble focusing on tasks assigned to them or are resistant to any authority over them. Anyone who studies children will see some like that. Not all of them will exhibit all of the listed behaviors, some only one.

There have always been children like that.

There is no scientific basis that justifies calling it a mental disorder. It is normal for some young human brains to be that way. Time, and patience and teaching and discipline will help almost all of them to learn to control themselves.


Ok, then.  Explain all that next time you meet a physician who gives meds to kids with ADHD.  That ain't me . . .



  

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Re: "By the Last Period, their Medication has Worn Off"
Reply #26 - Aug 28th, 2018 at 5:11pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Aug 28th, 2018 at 4:02pm:
Awesome!  It finally sunk in.
I've known that sort of thing since the '60s.

My complaint is with drawing "conclusions" that have nothing to do with what has been observed and recorded and analyzed.

A long ago conclusion about homosexuality was that it was an abomination. Then it became a moral failing, homosexuals were labeled moral degenerates. Then it was relabeled as a mental disorder.

All of that was just labels, nothing to do with science. Everything to do with making judgements and pronouncements about the judgements that had been made...

Nothing was discovered about homosexuality, ever, that allowed for value judgements to be made and called scientific facts.

That is also my objection to ADHD as a mental disorder.

To identify disordered minds, minds with defects, you have to know what an ordered mind is.

Do mind scientists have a description/definition of "ordered mind"?

No. They might have opinions based on their judgements. Opinions based on judgements don't amount to scientific facts.
  
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Re: "By the Last Period, their Medication has Worn Off"
Reply #27 - Aug 28th, 2018 at 8:57pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 28th, 2018 at 5:11pm:
I've known that sort of thing since the '60s.

My complaint is with drawing "conclusions" that have nothing to do with what has been observed and recorded and analyzed.

A long ago conclusion about homosexuality was that it was an abomination. Then it became a moral failing, homosexuals were labeled moral degenerates. Then it was relabeled as a mental disorder.

All of that was just labels, nothing to do with science. Everything to do with making judgements and pronouncements about the judgements that had been made...

Nothing was discovered about homosexuality, ever, that allowed for value judgements to be made and called scientific facts.

That is also my objection to ADHD as a mental disorder.

To identify disordered minds, minds with defects, you have to know what an ordered mind is.

Do mind scientists have a description/definition of "ordered mind"?

No. They might have opinions based on their judgements. Opinions based on judgements don't amount to scientific facts.


So you literally believe that there is no such thing as a mental disorder?  Does that thought give you comfort?

  

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Re: "By the Last Period, their Medication has Worn Off"
Reply #28 - Aug 28th, 2018 at 10:41pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Aug 28th, 2018 at 3:17pm:
Getting an idea in one's head that cannot be shaken loose is very common in a person on the AU spectrum so it isn't surprising.


Morton is trying to stop me from turning into a chicken. He has been ever since before he joined the forum.

Snarky Sack wrote on Aug 28th, 2018 at 8:57pm:
So you literally believe that there is no such thing as a mental disorder?


To be perfectly fair, I sort of believe this.

There are things about one's personality that hurt one, that one might like to change, and things that don't.

Live and let live. If an anorexic wants to be anorexic, they shouldn't be treated as disordered. If another anorexic says, "Help me, I am sick, help me get better," then help that one change.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Re: "By the Last Period, their Medication has Worn Off"
Reply #29 - Aug 29th, 2018 at 8:09am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Aug 28th, 2018 at 8:57pm:
So you literally believe that there is no such thing as a mental disorder?  Does that thought give you comfort?

What I don't believe is that science is entitled to pronounce that certain behaviors or sets of behaviors are a "mental disorder" or a "moral failing" or an "abomination".

The brain of a newborn human is a thing of almost chaotic disorder, and the process of learning brings some sort of order to that brain.

How and when that happens is highly variable and depends on many things both within the individual brain and in the family and society in which the child is being raised.

It also depends on the mind of the child, which for some children says "I'm going to buckle down and learn everything I can about everything" and for others says, "I'm not interested in learning this crap, I want to go out and play and develop my body and physical skills".

Which mind of which child is disordered?
  
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