Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › "By the Last Period, their Medication has Worn Off"
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) "By the Last Period, their Medication has Worn Off" (Read 502 times)
Snarky Sack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 3828
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: "By the Last Period, their Medication has Worn Off"
Reply #30 - Aug 29th, 2018 at 9:48am
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Aug 28th, 2018 at 10:41pm:
Morton is trying to stop me from turning into a chicken. He has been ever since before he joined the forum.


To be perfectly fair, I sort of believe this.

There are things about one's personality that hurt one, that one might like to change, and things that don't.

Live and let live. If an anorexic wants to be anorexic, they shouldn't be treated as disordered. If another anorexic says, "Help me, I am sick, help me get better," then help that one change.


I'd agree with that for an adult.  I don't see letting a 14 year old starve herself because libertarian.  But I've always said that libertarianism is for grownups.  Also terms like anorexia are misused such as when people say that some formerly fat person lost weight and "looks anorexic."  They would not have gotten fat in the first place if they were anorexic.  If you just watched a sad movie and now you're down in the dumps, you not "depressed." 

Kids who cut themselves, kids who commit suicide when there is nothing going on with them that reasonably makes life not worth living, people who compulsively swallow non-food objects and harm their digestive system and hundreds of other behaviors are signs of different mental disorder. 

If a girl is cutting herself, we call it non-suicidal self injury disorder and try to find ways to help her to stop doing that.  We don't say, "she's got to learn to make better choices."  The way we find those interventions is through experimental and non-experimental research, not just "old fashioned common sense" as Jeff advocates.

Jeff can whine about homosexuality being placed in the category of mental disorder and then being taken our, both times because of politics and he's got a point about that one thing.  The mental health community's current ideas about transgender are shockingly bad.  But those politically driven bad ideas don't render the entire concept of mental disorder invalid.  John Wayne Gacy didn't kill all those kids because he was just evil or possessed by the devil or because people have different hobbies and that just happened to be his.  He had a mental disorder.
  

"Taxes are morally justified theft" - Jeff
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 7652
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: "By the Last Period, their Medication has Worn Off"
Reply #31 - Aug 29th, 2018 at 12:06pm
Print Post  
For me it's about the psychological industry being adult enough to admit that it might be wrong.

14 is breeding age. Let's say this girl's anorexic physique gives her dominance advantage over the other females. Even though she sees herself as fat, the other ones walk aside for her and that gives her dominance and confidence, even if she doesn't realise it. She'll probably see herself as great at everything, like most super-attractive females. As a result, she experiences increased reproductive success.

This might not happen, but it very well might. Anorexia might be the next big thing in human evolution. In five hundred years, it might be considered a disorder if a female doesn't have it.

It's a good place to draw the line for children (and when I say children I mean those who aren't yet formal operational) but I've always been prickly about this issue because 18 is actually the average age of death for prehistoric man, not the actual line of maturity, so if we restrict rights by age, we could end up with a geriocracy where Jeff gets to tell the rest of us what to do because we're not 60 yet.

And maybe I have a bit of the old sour grapes because I was in college at 13 and I felt it was unfair that I wasn't able to mate when my peers were. The middle school kids I left behind did it with each other (no crime) and the college kids did it with each other. So I had to wait until I was legal - 18. Having to wait an unreasonably long time to achieve a necessary developmental stage is pretty much the definition of retardation.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Snarky Sack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 3828
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: "By the Last Period, their Medication has Worn Off"
Reply #32 - Aug 29th, 2018 at 12:14pm
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Aug 29th, 2018 at 12:06pm:
For me it's about the psychological industry being adult enough to admit that it might be wrong.


I hear you.  Many members of the leadership of the mental health community are very liberal and admitting to being wrong comes very hard for them.

Quote:
14 is breeding age. Let's say this girl's anorexic physique gives her dominance advantage over the other females. Even though she sees herself as fat, the other ones walk aside for her and that gives her dominance and confidence, even if she doesn't realise it. She'll probably see herself as great at everything, like most super-attractive females. As a result, she experiences increased reproductive success.

This might not happen, but it very well might. Anorexia might be the next big thing in human evolution. In five hundred years, it might be considered a disorder if a female doesn't have it.

It's a good place to draw the line for children (and when I say children I mean those who aren't yet formal operational) but I've always been prickly about this issue because 18 is actually the average age of death for prehistoric man, not the actual line of maturity, so if we restrict rights by age, we could end up with a geriocracy where Jeff gets to tell the rest of us what to do because we're not 60 yet.

And maybe I have a bit of the old sour grapes because I was in college at 13 and I felt it was unfair that I wasn't able to mate when my peers were. The middle school kids I left behind did it with each other (no crime) and the college kids did it with each other. So I had to wait until I was legal - 18. Having to wait an unreasonably long time to achieve a necessary developmental stage is pretty much the definition of retardation.


Did the law prevent those college babes from giving you a tumble or did they just not have interest in a thirteen year old genius? 

I'm surprised that you were not smart enough to figure out ways to meet girls your own age.  You could have gotten dozens of numbers at just one Menudo concert.

  

"Taxes are morally justified theft" - Jeff
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 7652
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: "By the Last Period, their Medication has Worn Off"
Reply #33 - Aug 29th, 2018 at 12:33pm
Print Post  
Snarky Sack wrote on Aug 29th, 2018 at 12:14pm:
Did the law prevent those college babes from giving you a tumble or did they just not have interest in a thirteen year old genius?


It was a complicated thing. The role flirtation plays in college social interaction is a big one, and if you're not legally allowed to mate, it makes things like study groups awkward. You don't want Paedophilia looming over you for just treating someone like a person, and in college that does involve some flirtation.

Maybe this is optimistic, but I don't think I would have been an absolute failure if it wasn't for the law. I might not have gotten the very hottest, but there was definitely potential chemistry with some, especially that one girl in chemistry class who agreed with me about determinism. Us, against the rest of the world.

Women are a lot better at internalising social norms than men. For males, if the 15-year-old is attractive, he's going to at least look. For females, I think the societal prohibition is stronger. (Though this is just my anecdotal analysis.)

Maybe I could have met girls my own age. And maybe I was wrong, but I thought dating them would be the weird thing. The ones in college, those were my peers. I thought I'd earned that.

I know this is disgusting, and disproportionately because of my own experiences, but I believe that if someone is formal operational, and can ejaculate or menstruate, they should be legally allowed to mate. Add a test to make sure they know the basics about pregnancy, protection, STDs, and being exploited if you must.

The part that's not about my experiences is that I think the law is disproportionately punishing those who follow it and advantaging those who scoff it.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 34367
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: "By the Last Period, their Medication has Worn Off"
Reply #34 - Aug 29th, 2018 at 2:24pm
Print Post  
Snarky Sack wrote on Aug 29th, 2018 at 9:48am:
Jeff can whine about homosexuality being placed in the category of mental disorder and then being taken our, both times because of politics and he's got a point about that one thing.  The mental health community's current ideas about transgender are shockingly bad.  But those politically driven bad ideas don't render the entire concept of mental disorder invalid.  John Wayne Gacy didn't kill all those kids because he was just evil or possessed by the devil or because people have different hobbies and that just happened to be his.  He had a mental disorder.
I used homosexuality as an example. I also mentioned ADHD.

What I object to is the supposition that studying people scientifically somehow gives scientists the power to make value judgements about behavior and attach arbitrary labels to the behavior.

I don't see ADHD as anything but some fairly normal human behaviors for some children that are lumped together and called a mental disorder.

John Wayne Gacy was not engaged in normal human behavior. What I would say is that he was not human, not that he was a human with a mental disorder.

I've asked you this before- Is there any reason that mind scientists could not label belief in God as a mental disorder? Conversely, is there any reason that mind scientists could not label atheism as a mental disorder?

Would it not depend solely on the judgement that either belief or non-belief was abnormal in the society where the judgement was being made?

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 34367
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: "By the Last Period, their Medication has Worn Off"
Reply #35 - Aug 29th, 2018 at 4:53pm
Print Post  
Red, let's just go back to the time when mind scientists said that homosexuality was a mental disorder.

What, specifically, has been learned about the minds of homosexuals since then that has convinced mind scientists that there is nothing wrong with the minds of homosexuals?

What exactly convinced mind scientists in the past that there was something wrong with the minds of homosexuals? What was the "disorder" they saw?

You can use scientific language at a Doctoral level if that's easier for you. Kiss

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Snarky Sack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 3828
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: "By the Last Period, their Medication has Worn Off"
Reply #36 - Aug 29th, 2018 at 5:02pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Aug 29th, 2018 at 4:53pm:
Red, let's just go back to the time when mind scientists said that homosexuality was a mental disorder.

What, specifically, has been learned about the minds of homosexuals since then that has convinced mind scientists that there is nothing wrong with the minds of homosexuals?


Nothing whatsoever.  Taking homosexuality out of the book of disorders was a purely political move.

Quote:
What exactly convinced mind scientists in the past that there was something wrong with the minds of homosexuals? What was the "disorder" they saw?



I believe it was the incredibly high suicide rate of homosexuals.  The disorder was labeled "homosexuality."  It was called a disorder because part of the definition of a disorder was WTTE of it interferes with one's enjoyment of life.  Killing yourself is a pretty good indicator of that, wouldn't you say?  They also took into account the fact that homosexuality interfered with the ability to have children which interfered with an aspect of life that most people believed added to its enjoyment. 

If they still used that definition, homosexuality would still be a disorder.  It is only because of politics that they pretended it magically ceased to be a disorder.

Much like you pretend that redistribution of wealth magically is not stealing if it is for education.

  

"Taxes are morally justified theft" - Jeff
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 34367
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: "By the Last Period, their Medication has Worn Off"
Reply #37 - Aug 29th, 2018 at 5:09pm
Print Post  
Snarky Sack wrote on Aug 29th, 2018 at 5:02pm:
Nothing whatsoever.  Taking homosexuality out of the book of disorders was a purely political move.
OK, we've established that many (most?) mind scientists are political shills. Cry

Let's talk about ADHD and how mind scientists discovered, scientifically, that it wasn't a moral weakness, but was in fact a "mental disorder".

You can get technically specific and use Doctoral level language, it would be good in fact if you did. Thanks.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 34367
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: "By the Last Period, their Medication has Worn Off"
Reply #38 - Aug 29th, 2018 at 5:47pm
Print Post  
Snarky Sack wrote on Aug 29th, 2018 at 12:14pm:
Did the law prevent those college babes from giving you a tumble or did they just not have interest in a thirteen year old genius? 
My guess is that the lizard has always scared people, most especially girls and young women.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 34367
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: "By the Last Period, their Medication has Worn Off"
Reply #39 - Aug 30th, 2018 at 6:55am
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Aug 29th, 2018 at 5:09pm:
OK, we've established that many (most?) mind scientists are political shills. Cry

Let's talk about ADHD and how mind scientists discovered, scientifically, that it wasn't a moral weakness, but was in fact a "mental disorder".

You can get technically specific and use Doctoral level language, it would be good in fact if you did. Thanks.
Red, this is a pretty good exposition of my position regarding ADHD-

http://time.com/25370/doctor-adhd-does-not-exist/

And here's something about Dr. Leon Eisenberg-

https://www.cchrint.org/2013/10/30/adhd-is-a-fictitious-disease/
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › "By the Last Period, their Medication has Worn Off"
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy