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Re: The Return to the Gold Standard
Reply #30 - Sep 4th, 2018 at 9:53am
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BobK71 wrote on Sep 3rd, 2018 at 8:12am:
Under a gold standard, encouraging both physical gold (coins) and paper money (redeemable for physical gold at a fixed rate) to circulate allows the elites to receive extra power and wealth from issuing paper.

Gresham's Law...  Bad money always drives out good money.
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Return to the Gold Standard
Reply #31 - Sep 4th, 2018 at 9:56am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 4th, 2018 at 9:24am:
  Almost the same with government.  Government has the power to require that its worthless notes be accepted, so it isn't exactly the same. 


The U.S. government has no granted power to create or issue fiat money to begin with, so it's silly to imagine they have a legitimate power to require people to accept what they have no power to create.
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Return to the Gold Standard
Reply #32 - Sep 4th, 2018 at 9:59am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 4th, 2018 at 9:24am:
But it hopes that the citizens of the U.S. don't know better and clearly many of us don't.  Issuing gold-backed notes instead of gold still relies on our trusting the government that the notes really are gold-backed.  If the U.S. should provoke another country into attacking us, and needs to start buying weapons on the international market, gold will be the best way to get them.  So they will switch back to fiat money, institute severe penalties for "unpatriotic" Americans who question it and we'll be right back to where we are now.

I'm always amazed at how many libertarians trust government.
I don't think there are any libertarians that trust our current national government.

Unless "legal tender" laws can be repealed and the government convinced it has no power to either issue fiat money or force people to use it, we are stuck with fiat money.

Loan me some bitcoins under a contract that requires I pay you back with interest? The law says I can pay you back with FRNs, and I will.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: The Return to the Gold Standard
Reply #33 - Sep 4th, 2018 at 10:36am
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Jeff wrote on Sep 4th, 2018 at 9:59am:
I don't think there are any libertarians that trust our current national government.



I understand you're a constitutionalist moreso than a libertarian and therefore you see the over-reach of the federal government as the problem.  Government at all levels is the problem.

I love the people and land of Texas.   But, being in education and working around the public school system, I often have the displeasure of being in Austin to deal with the state's educational bureaucracy.  I call it "Sh-tshow City," because they can be just foolish, controlling and incompetent as any of their DC counterparts.


  

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Re: The Return to the Gold Standard
Reply #34 - Sep 4th, 2018 at 10:52am
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Jeff wrote on Sep 4th, 2018 at 9:56am:
The U.S. government has no granted power to create or issue fiat money to begin with, so it's silly to imagine they have a legitimate power to require people to accept what they have no power to create.


Legitimate, schmegitimate.  Government has the power to require us to accept fiat money, even as payment for contracts that specified gold-backed money.  They claimed that power and several USSC have affirmed that power.  So government has that power, whether we "granted" it or not and whether we think it is "legitimate" or not.

Our decision now is whether to tacitly grant them that power by doing nothing about it or to take that power away from them by doing something.

For about a century and a half, now, we have chosen the former.

What now, Jeff?


  

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Jeff
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Re: The Return to the Gold Standard
Reply #35 - Sep 4th, 2018 at 3:08pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 4th, 2018 at 10:36am:
I understand you're a constitutionalist moreso than a libertarian and therefore you see the over-reach of the federal government as the problem.  Government at all levels is the problem.


You assume that you know what a libertarian is, and you define it very narrowly, which you aren't really empowered to do. It's an overreach on your part.

But yes, I agree, government at every level is exceeding it's granted powers. There can't be government overreach unless there are defined limits within which government can legitimately act.
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Return to the Gold Standard
Reply #36 - Sep 4th, 2018 at 3:13pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 4th, 2018 at 10:52am:
Legitimate, schmegitimate.  Government has the power to require us to accept fiat money, even as payment for contracts that specified gold-backed money.  They claimed that power and several USSC have affirmed that power.  So government has that power, whether we "granted" it or not and whether we think it is "legitimate" or not.
There is quite a difference between legally granted powers and usurped powers.

I try to draw the distinction whenever I can, because far too many Americans believe that government has unlimited general powers and I think an argument from within the law is often a more powerful argument.


  
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Jeff
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Re: The Return to the Gold Standard
Reply #37 - Sep 4th, 2018 at 3:16pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 4th, 2018 at 10:52am:
Our decision now is whether to tacitly grant them that power by doing nothing about it or to take that power away from them by doing something.

For about a century and a half, now, we have chosen the former.
I disagree. There have always been Americans who argued against usurped powers, which is doing something.

"We" can try to take control of our state legislatures and have them call a convention and emend the Constitution to restore our government to its intended limits.

What do you have in mind that will work better?
  
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Re: The Return to the Gold Standard
Reply #38 - Sep 4th, 2018 at 3:18pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 4th, 2018 at 3:08pm:
There can't be government overreach unless there are defined limits within which government can legitimately act.
Right.  But you should add to that sentence to make it read:

There can't be government overreach unless there are defined limits within which government can legitimately act, in which case there will be always overreach every single time, especially if part of the defined limits is allowing government the power to tax, regulate money or otherwise find ways to fund its own growth and overreach.



  

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Re: The Return to the Gold Standard
Reply #39 - Sep 4th, 2018 at 3:50pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 4th, 2018 at 3:18pm:
Right.  But you should add to that sentence to make it read:

There can't be government overreach unless there are defined limits within which government can legitimately act, in which case there will be always overreach every single time, especially if part of the defined limits is allowing government the power to tax, regulate money or otherwise find ways to fund its own growth and overreach.



Is that a law?

No, of course not. It's just a statement derived from an observation of reality, a reality of which the people who wrote and ratified the Constitution were aware.

They mentioned that constant vigilance would be necessary, and some thought periodic armed  revolution would be required... I'd prefer to avoid the armed revolution stuff if at all possible.
  
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