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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Return to the Gold Standard (Read 1568 times)
Snarky Sack
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Re: The Return to the Gold Standard
Reply #40 - Sep 4th, 2018 at 4:18pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 4th, 2018 at 3:50pm:
Is that a law?

No, of course not. It's just a statement derived from an observation of reality,


Observational reality is the basis of all science.

Quote:
a reality of which the people who wrote and ratified the Constitution were aware.

They mentioned that constant vigilance would be necessary, and some thought periodic armed  revolution would be required... I'd prefer to avoid the armed revolution stuff if at all possible.


Have you ever considered the possibility that the federalists were fully aware that the main purpose/effect of the new constitution was to grow the national government and that all their talk about how the people would have to be vigilant was intended to make it appear to be the people's fault when the government inevitibly grew to far a far larger size and far more intrusive powers than the people envisioned when their state representatives ratified it?

I have . . .

  

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Jeff
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Re: The Return to the Gold Standard
Reply #41 - Sep 4th, 2018 at 5:10pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 4th, 2018 at 4:18pm:
Have you ever considered the possibility that the federalists were fully aware that the main purpose/effect of the new constitution was to grow the national government...
I considered it and rejected the possibility using critical thinking.

If you have some evidence that what you claim  was true, I'd like to see it...

Thanks.
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Return to the Gold Standard
Reply #42 - Sep 4th, 2018 at 5:11pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 4th, 2018 at 4:18pm:
I have . . .

As a matter of Faith?
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: The Return to the Gold Standard
Reply #43 - Sep 4th, 2018 at 6:47pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 4th, 2018 at 4:18pm:
Have you ever considered the possibility that the federalists were fully aware that the main purpose/effect of the new constitution was to grow the national government and that all their talk about how the people would have to be vigilant was intended to make it appear to be the people's fault when the government inevitibly grew to far a far larger size and far more intrusive powers than the people envisioned when their state representatives ratified it?
I have . . .




Quote:
I considered it and rejected the possibility using critical thinking.

If you have some evidence that what you claim  was true, I'd like to see it...

Thanks.


Well, you yourself admitted to two parts of my question.  First, you have agreed many times that the purpose of the constitution was to strengthen a national government that was way to weak, in order to keep us from becoming French or becoming a caliphate or whatever.

More recently, you agreed that in reality government has found a way to grow using taxes:


SnarkySack wrote Today at 3:18pm:
Quote:
Right.  But you should add to that sentence to make it read:

There can't be government overreach unless there are defined limits within which government can legitimately act, in which case there will be always overreach every single time, especially if part of the defined limits is allowing government the power to tax, regulate money or otherwise find ways to fund its own growth and overreach.


Jeff:
Quote:
Is that a law?

No, of course not. It's just a statement derived from an observation of reality, a reality of which the people who wrote and ratified the Constitution were aware.


So the only remaining component of my question was whether the framers knew what would happen and deliberately protected their reputations with that "ever vigilant" stuff.

I don't know for sure but it makes sense.  I know you have this faith-based confidence that the slaveholders who founded the U.S. were these great and altruistic men who established a constitutional republic to be run by as yet unknown citizens temporarily pulled from the pursuit of happiness to take turns administering a limited government.  But then look who got the top jobs:  Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Hamilton, etc.  Why the very men who dreamed up this growing government. 

Co-ink-e-dink?  I think not.








  

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Jeff
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Re: The Return to the Gold Standard
Reply #44 - Sep 5th, 2018 at 8:15am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 4th, 2018 at 6:47pm:
Well, you yourself admitted to two parts of my question.  First, you have agreed many times that the purpose of the constitution was to strengthen a national government that was way to weak, in order to keep us from becoming French or becoming a caliphate or whatever.

More recently, you agreed that in reality government has found a way to grow using taxes:


SnarkySack wrote Today at 3:18pm:

Jeff:

So the only remaining component of my question was whether the framers knew what would happen and deliberately protected their reputations with that "ever vigilant" stuff.

I don't know for sure but it makes sense.  I know you have this faith-based confidence that the slaveholders who founded the U.S. were these great and altruistic men who established a constitutional republic to be run by as yet unknown citizens temporarily pulled from the pursuit of happiness to take turns administering a limited government.  But then look who got the top jobs:  Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Hamilton, etc.  Why the very men who dreamed up this growing government. 

Co-ink-e-dink?  I think not.









Your only "evidence" for your claim is to misconstrue what I've said and drag the evils of slavery into the discussion?



It was necessary to modify or replace the Articles of Confederation if there was to be any national government at all. The power to tax was essential to the existence of a national government. (Note: None of the new state governments or the town and city governments of the time existed without the power to tax... They all had it and used it.)

It was not a desire to give the national government more power that led to Constitution being ratified, but to maintain it's existence with very limited powers.

England, France and Spain, the primary world powers of the time all had presences in North America, and none of them liked the ideas behind the U.S. 

The fears that the new U.S. would not last were real, as were the fears that economic rivalry between states would lead to wars between the states and the balkanization of America.

If you have any real evidence of your claim that power hungry statists created and ratified the Constitution, please present it.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: The Return to the Gold Standard
Reply #45 - Sep 5th, 2018 at 10:00am
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Jeff wrote on Sep 5th, 2018 at 8:15am:
Your only "evidence" for your claim is to misconstrue what I've said and drag the evils of slavery into the discussion?



It was necessary to modify or replace the Articles of Confederation if there was to be any national government at all. The power to tax was essential to the existence of a national government. (Note: None of the new state governments or the town and city governments of the time existed without the power to tax... They all had it and used it.)

It was not a desire to give the national government more power that led to Constitution being ratified, but to maintain it's existence with very limited powers.

England, France and Spain, the primary world powers of the time all had presences in North America, and none of them liked the ideas behind the U.S. 

The fears that the new U.S. would not last were real, as were the fears that economic rivalry between states would lead to wars between the states and the balkanization of America.

If you have any real evidence of your claim that power hungry statists created and ratified the Constitution, please present it.


Simple question:

Do you think there should be a limit on the amount of taxes that any individual pays to government at however many levels?

Not a vague limit like "reasonable needs of the government." but a hard limit, like a percent of earning and existing wealth?

  

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Re: The Return to the Gold Standard
Reply #46 - Sep 5th, 2018 at 2:45pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 5th, 2018 at 10:00am:
Simple question:

Do you think there should be a limit on the amount of taxes that any individual pays to government at however many levels?

Not a vague limit like "reasonable needs of the government." but a hard limit, like a percent of earning and existing wealth?

The Federalists argued that the proposed Constitution would create a strictly limited government that would protect individual rights and property. The anti-Federalists argued that it was not limited enough.

You claim that the Constitution was created to give unlimited powers to a strong central government, but you have presented absolutely no evidence that this was true.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: The Return to the Gold Standard
Reply #47 - Sep 5th, 2018 at 3:03pm
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No, Jeff... 

Just do you believe there should be a set limit to taxes or do you believe they should be unlimited?
  

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Jeff
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Re: The Return to the Gold Standard
Reply #48 - Sep 5th, 2018 at 4:02pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 5th, 2018 at 3:03pm:
No, Jeff... 

Just do you believe there should be a set limit to taxes or do you believe they should be unlimited?

If you have any real evidence of your claim that power hungry statists created and ratified the Constitution, please present it, thanks.

At least try to make a reasoned argument in support of your claim...
  
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Re: The Return to the Gold Standard
Reply #49 - Sep 7th, 2018 at 12:42pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 29th, 2018 at 7:36am:
Chief, inflating fiat currency renders your stored wealth worthless, tying the currency to gold would prevent that.

It depends on how the wealth is stored.  If wealth is stored in the form of physical precious metals, then inflation has zero effect on the value of those metals.

All "hard" assets (i.e., gold, silver, real estate, art, gems, etc) are good ways to store wealth, and are immune to inflation.
  
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