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SkyChief
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Re: Using Deadly Force to Prevent Theft
Reply #100 - Sep 13th, 2018 at 12:26pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 13th, 2018 at 12:15pm:
Not respecting other people's rights can get you arrested. Maybe even executed. Maybe who you are trying to kill will kill you.

Good point, Jeff.

This supports my general theory of universal self-defense rights, which are absolute, and unconditional.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Using Deadly Force to Prevent Theft
Reply #101 - Sep 13th, 2018 at 12:28pm
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 13th, 2018 at 12:20pm:
But since it doesn't make even the slightest difference to me, I'm willing to talk about my duty to respect rights rather than whether or not the other guy has them.

If "other guys" don't have rights, there is nothing for you to respect and thus no duty.

Since everyone does have rights, you are obligated to respect them.
  
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TYCapitalism
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Re: Using Deadly Force to Prevent Theft
Reply #102 - Sep 13th, 2018 at 12:38pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 13th, 2018 at 12:28pm:
If "other guys" don't have rights, there is nothing for you to respect and thus no duty.

Since everyone does have rights, you are obligated to respect them.


If my rights are put in danger by someone who does not respect them,  am I still obligated to respect his?
  

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Re: Using Deadly Force to Prevent Theft
Reply #103 - Sep 13th, 2018 at 12:53pm
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TYCapitalism wrote on Sep 13th, 2018 at 12:38pm:
If my rights are put in danger by someone who does not respect them,  am I still obligated to respect his?


That's where the "contract" comes in. That "contract" is binding on both parties only as long as both honor it. A violation by one party releases the other from his obligations under it.

"Put in danger" is vague, though. To justify violating another's rights you must be sure the danger is all but certain and imminent. Otherwise you become the aggressor.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Using Deadly Force to Prevent Theft
Reply #104 - Sep 13th, 2018 at 1:22pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 13th, 2018 at 12:28pm:
Since everyone does have rights, you are obligated to respect them.


Care to address this, Morton?
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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TYCapitalism
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Re: Using Deadly Force to Prevent Theft
Reply #105 - Sep 13th, 2018 at 1:28pm
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I believe he just did.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Using Deadly Force to Prevent Theft
Reply #106 - Sep 13th, 2018 at 2:33pm
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TYCapitalism wrote on Sep 13th, 2018 at 12:38pm:
If my rights are put in danger by someone who does not respect them,  am I still obligated to respect his?
The easy answer is no, if someone is trying to kill you, you have a right to use force (including deadly force) against them.

If you think someone picked your pocket and stole your wallet, you can't just shoot them.

One of the rights we have in America is the right to be presumed innocent etc. etc. comprising what is known as due process of law. Accused people have rights too.

Sometimes this means guilty people will escape punishment, but it also hopefully means that innocent people won't be killed by mistake.

I actually had a hard time taking this question seriously. I guess I just assume that people know that rights aren't absolute, they are conditional on respecting the rights of others.
  
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TYCapitalism
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Re: Using Deadly Force to Prevent Theft
Reply #107 - Sep 13th, 2018 at 3:31pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 13th, 2018 at 2:33pm:
The easy answer is no, if someone is trying to kill you, you have a right to use force (including deadly force) against them.

If you think someone picked your pocket and stole your wallet, you can't just shoot them.

One of the rights we have in America is the right to be presumed innocent etc. etc. comprising what is known as due process of law. Accused people have rights too.

Sometimes this means guilty people will escape punishment, but it also hopefully means that innocent people won't be killed by mistake.

I actually had a hard time taking this question seriously. I guess I just assume that people know that rights aren't absolute, they are conditional on respecting the rights of others.


You contradict yourself frequently in this statement.

According to you I have the right to use deadly force to protect one of my rights (my right to life only), but I also have a right to be presumed innocent, but my rights are conditional on respecting the rights of others such as presuming the innocence of the person who has stolen from me.

So a pick pocket's rights are conditional to them respecting my rights and if I shoot them dead my innocence must be presumed by you, which before now you have stated doesn't apply to me after using deadly force.

That's your logic I'm using there, derived from your own words and I am actually amazed you made each of those assertions without reaching the logical conclusion that I have the right to defend myself and my property with deadly force.
  

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TYCapitalism
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Re: Using Deadly Force to Prevent Theft
Reply #108 - Sep 13th, 2018 at 3:35pm
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It's not good, is what I'm saying.

I prefer to be consistent. My rights are absolute. As are the rights of my attacker. The attacker does not have a right to violate my rights, but I do have the right to defend them in whatever way I can.

So someone trying to steal my car or smash the window of my shop can be killed because my right to protect my rights supersedes their right to live especially, but not only, when they are acting outside their rights.

Basically, don't tread on me and I won't bite you. That's the promise I must keep and my responsibility to others. Nothing less, nothing more.
  

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Re: Using Deadly Force to Prevent Theft
Reply #109 - Sep 13th, 2018 at 4:43pm
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TYCapitalism wrote on Sep 13th, 2018 at 3:35pm:
Basically, don't tread on me and I won't bite you.

I think this would be a great motto for the Libertarian Party 

"DON'T TREAD ON ME"    Smiley
  
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