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Jeff
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Re: Using Deadly Force to Prevent Theft
Reply #20 - Sep 5th, 2018 at 8:24am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 4th, 2018 at 7:07pm:
Exactly.

That's my main issue with Jeff's tax-em-at-gunpoint philosophy is that he both does and does not admit that taxes are taken at gunpoint.  His exact words:  "Oh, Come on!  That hardly ever happens!"

I'd respect Jeff a lot more, if he was willing to join his community in a pitchfork and torch mob to force reluctant members to pay for the public schools.  At least he might get a load of double ought for his trouble. 

Instead, he prefers other people handle the guns so he can enjoy "free" police and "free" public schools.  I don't know if he is one of the fifty percent of people who pay no taxes or the fifty percent who pay enough to cover everyone's "share."

He claims that he's a taxpayer, but how often do you hear taxes advocated so strongly by a person who actually pays them?

I'm guessing he also advocates conscription, even though he would have never borne arms in defense of his nation.

Just sayin' . . .


There is a threat of force behind all taxation, but your constant hyperbolic wailing that it is lethal force is untrue in the U.S.

What I actually prefer is to live in a peaceful civilized community, which is also what most others in this area prefer, which is why they agree to have their property taxed to support police and courts and the jail and the schools.

It is something that was going on not only before I moved here, but before I was born.

I happen to think it not only works pretty well, but that it is a fair and equitable way to preserve civilization locally.

You disagree, and you are welcome (and free) to try to convince people to stop doing it and implement your plans, whatever they might be.


  
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Jeff
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Re: Using Deadly Force to Prevent Theft
Reply #21 - Sep 5th, 2018 at 8:33am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 4th, 2018 at 7:07pm:
I'd respect Jeff a lot more, if he was willing to join his community in a pitchfork and torch mob to force reluctant members to pay for the public schools.  At least he might get a load of double ought for his trouble. 

Instead, he prefers other people handle the guns so he can enjoy "free" police and "free" public schools.  I don't know if he is one of the fifty percent of people who pay no taxes or the fifty percent who pay enough to cover everyone's "share."

He claims that he's a taxpayer, but how often do you hear taxes advocated so strongly by a person who actually pays them?

I'm guessing he also advocates conscription, even though he would have never borne arms in defense of his nation.
I don't advocate for conscription.

I do pay property taxes and state and federal income taxes, and I have explained many times how I feel about the constitutionality and morality of taxes for legitimate purposes and taxes for redistribution. (Edit: I've been paying state and federal income taxes since 1965 and property taxes directly since 1992. Prior to then, I rented, and my landlords used part of my rent to pay property taxes.)

I understand that you think vigilante justice with pitchforks and nooses and shooting running people in the back is what makes a society "libertarian" and truly "free", but you are simply wrong.

Here's a recent debate between Katherine Mangu-Ward and Nick Gillespie from Reason magazine.

They are both libertarians.

Mangu-Ward takes the pro-anarchy position and makes good libertarian arguments.

Where her argument fails for me is when she posits that anarchy would soon collapse into minarchy. That has never happened. Anarchy devolves into tyranny. History says so.

https://reason.com/archives/2018/09/02/proposition-be-an-anarchist-no?utm_medium...
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Using Deadly Force to Prevent Theft
Reply #22 - Sep 5th, 2018 at 9:26am
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Jeff wrote on Sep 5th, 2018 at 8:24am:
There is a threat of force behind all taxation, but your constant hyperbolic wailing that it is lethal force is untrue in the U.S.


Two responses:

1)  It is absolutely true in the U.S. that the threat of lethal force is behind all taxation.  In fact, especially in the U.S. because our police are always armed even when trolling for tickets and thanks to the post-9/11 mentality, they often have military-style weapons at the ready.  Everytime the taxing authority sends a non-payer a notice of delinquency, there is an implied threat of force, up to and including deadly force.  Sure, they may wrestle you out of your home instead of pointing a gun at you.  But they are not wrestling as a "fair fight" because they know they have backup with firearms if needed. 

If you owe property taxes on your home and persist in your refusal to pay, they don't send the biggest deputy to kick you out.  They may send a  five foot two grandma the week before her retirement.  But she'll have her own gun and lots more backing her up if need be.

How can you say that isn't deadly force?

2)  Why is any less foolish for an armed man to go collect property from people who are also likely to be armed if the armed man happens to have a badge and the property is property that the government has converted from private to public?

3)  Are you not OK with deadly force to collect taxes?  What force are you OK with to collect taxes?  Is it fine for them to slap a reluctant taxpayer around a little?  What about a vague, "you got a nice little house here.  Be a shame if anything happened to it."  How about water boarding them?

Please be specific with the type force you are willing to use.  Don't say, "public service," or "penalty for late payments," or some such because that's a consequence, not a means to enforce the consequence.

What force is OK for taxation and what force is over the line?


Quote:
What I actually prefer is to live in a peaceful civilized community, which is also what most others in this area prefer, which is why they agree to have their property taxed to support police and courts and the jail and the schools.


How many have to agree for you to say, "they agree?"  Give a percent please.

What percent of my community has to agree that my property is community property for it to be self-fulfilling?

  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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Jeff
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Re: Using Deadly Force to Prevent Theft
Reply #23 - Sep 5th, 2018 at 2:37pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 5th, 2018 at 9:26am:
Two responses:

1)  It is absolutely true in the U.S. that the threat of lethal force is behind all taxation.  In fact, especially in the U.S. because our police are always armed even when trolling for tickets and thanks to the post-9/11 mentality, they often have military-style weapons at the ready.  Everytime the taxing authority sends a non-payer a notice of delinquency, there is an implied threat of force, up to and including deadly force.  Sure, they may wrestle you out of your home instead of pointing a gun at you.  But they are not wrestling as a "fair fight" because they know they have backup with firearms if needed. 

If you owe property taxes on your home and persist in your refusal to pay, they don't send the biggest deputy to kick you out.  They may send a  five foot two grandma the week before her retirement.  But she'll have her own gun and lots more backing her up if need be.

How can you say that isn't deadly force?

2)  Why is any less foolish for an armed man to go collect property from people who are also likely to be armed if the armed man happens to have a badge and the property is property that the government has converted from private to public?

3)  Are you not OK with deadly force to collect taxes?  What force are you OK with to collect taxes?  Is it fine for them to slap a reluctant taxpayer around a little?  What about a vague, "you got a nice little house here.  Be a shame if anything happened to it."  How about water boarding them?

Please be specific with the type force you are willing to use.  Don't say, "public service," or "penalty for late payments," or some such because that's a consequence, not a means to enforce the consequence.

What force is OK for taxation and what force is over the line?
There is no threat of lethal force unless you resist doing what the law says you must do.

This applies to enforcement of any law. If you resist by initiating force rather than cooperating, it can escalate to a lethal situation.

The police are not authorized to use any more force than is necessary to do their job.

If they come to throw you out of a house that you have forfeited ownership of by not paying taxes that are owed, and you resist, they are authorized to use force but required to use non-lethal force where at all possible.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Using Deadly Force to Prevent Theft
Reply #24 - Sep 5th, 2018 at 2:39pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 5th, 2018 at 9:26am:
How many have to agree for you to say, "they agree?"  Give a percent please.

What percent of my community has to agree that my property is community property for it to be self-fulfilling?

You have made it perfectly clear in the past that you are an anarchist who thinks no government can ever be legitimate and all taxation is theft.

You are no friend of civilization or liberty.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Using Deadly Force to Prevent Theft
Reply #25 - Sep 5th, 2018 at 3:05pm
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Jeff,   When your belief system requires that you never answer any questions from a skeptic to avoid being debunked, it’s time to wonder whether the skeptics are right.
  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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GEMorton
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Re: Using Deadly Force to Prevent Theft
Reply #26 - Sep 5th, 2018 at 3:27pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 4th, 2018 at 7:07pm:
Instead, he prefers other people handle the guns so he can enjoy "free" police and "free" public schools.  I don't know if he is one of the fifty percent of people who pay no taxes or the fifty percent who pay enough to cover everyone's "share."


It should pointed out that while law enforcement and defense are public goods, schooling is not. It is a private good, and force cannot be justified to supply it.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Using Deadly Force to Prevent Theft
Reply #27 - Sep 5th, 2018 at 3:44pm
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GEMorton wrote on Sep 5th, 2018 at 3:27pm:
It should pointed out that while law enforcement and defense are public goods, schooling is not. It is a private good, and force cannot be justified to supply it.


I’m starting to think you might be right, but I can’t put my finger on why.

Can you explain why public schooling is not a public good, but public policing is a public good?

Also why force is more justified in one case than the other?  Just so I can help you convince others.
  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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Jeff
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Re: Using Deadly Force to Prevent Theft
Reply #28 - Sep 5th, 2018 at 4:20pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 5th, 2018 at 3:05pm:
Jeff,   When your belief system requires that you never answer any questions from a skeptic to avoid being debunked, it’s time to wonder whether the skeptics are right.
I respond to questions and statements and assertions. You don't. What you most commonly do is try to divert the discussion.

Obviously you don't like my responses... I hope you don't think you have a right to grill me as if I was a political prisoner? The lizard does that. It sometimes shouts "ANSWER THE QUESTION".
  
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Jeff
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Re: Using Deadly Force to Prevent Theft
Reply #29 - Sep 5th, 2018 at 4:23pm
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GEMorton wrote on Sep 5th, 2018 at 3:27pm:
It should pointed out that while law enforcement and defense are public goods, schooling is not. It is a private good, and force cannot be justified to supply it.
By my moral beliefs, which justify taxation for the preservation of civilized society, taxes to educate all the children in a community are justified. For basic education. So they can have an opportunity to do something other than cook meth and steal stuff to pawn.
  
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