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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Using Deadly Force to Prevent Theft (Read 7743 times)
Little Big Man
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Re: Using Deadly Force to Prevent Theft
Reply #240 - Nov 15th, 2018 at 9:20pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 15th, 2018 at 7:25pm:
Sack you ignorant slut, have you made any progress at all in figuring out the rules in such cases?

I've made my position clear. If you know who has your stolen motorcycle, tell the police, but if your child's (or anyone else's) life is at immediate risk, killing to prevent deadly harm is something you should do. The moral, ethical right thing... But not if you are likely to kill innocents in the process.

I hope neither of us is ever forced into making that sort of decision.

I try to stay away from lawless barbarians who might force me into killing them, hope they stay away from me, and rely on the government to make sure there aren't too many of them loose in our society. Smiley

Got it.  So only the taxman is allowed to use deadly force to recover stolen property.  Stolen property meaning a person's earnings that he does not turn over to the tax man.  Thus stealing it from the government.

Real libertarian way of thinking, there, Jeff.
  

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The Opposition
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Re: Using Deadly Force to Prevent Theft
Reply #241 - Nov 15th, 2018 at 9:28pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Nov 15th, 2018 at 5:50pm:
That post is a perfect self-contained example of how you constantly shift your positions.


Here's a better one, in the same thread. Within one post.

Jeff wrote on Nov 14th, 2018 at 8:50am:
Fine. I'll stick with what I said, it's moral to not initiate aggression.

Let's change the NAP from a principle to a rule and call it the DIAR- the Don't Initiate Aggression Rule.

Now it should be easy for you, just follow the rule! Smiley


Jeff wrote on Nov 15th, 2018 at 6:43am:
Right, and what it is is a fantasy, an imaginary world where people will voluntarily fund a minimum government and everyone follows the NAP.


See, for the little guy, just follow the rule. For the big guys (government, corporations) no one should expect them to do that - that's a fantasy.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Using Deadly Force to Prevent Theft
Reply #242 - Nov 16th, 2018 at 8:13am
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Little Big Man wrote on Nov 15th, 2018 at 9:20pm:
Got it.  So only the taxman is allowed to use deadly force to recover stolen property.  Stolen property meaning a person's earnings that he does not turn over to the tax man.  Thus stealing it from the government.

No, that's not what I believe and I'm sorry you got the wrong impression.

Police are authorized by law to use force to recover stolen property. That would include the authorization to recover taxes that were legally due but not paid... But taxes paid aren't really anybodies property, they are revenue to be used to accomplish the legitimate purposes of government.

Individuals have a right to use force to protect their property from theft, but the force can't be disproportionate to the crime.

Anyone who chooses to use force to resist the police will find the police using force against him, possibly disproportionate force. Make your own decision about whether you think it's a good idea to meet the police with potentially deadly force.

I understand you think anyone who approves of limited taxation to fund limited government is not a "real" libertarian. That's a moronic idea that leads to anarchy and/or tyranny.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Using Deadly Force to Prevent Theft
Reply #243 - Nov 16th, 2018 at 8:19am
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 15th, 2018 at 9:28pm:
See, for the little guy, just follow the rule. For the big guys (government, corporations) no one should expect them to do that - that's a fantasy.
Corporations, just like individuals, are required by law not to initiate aggression.

Our governments are not granted any power to initiate aggression other than that Congress can declare war for whatever reason they choose. Hopefully they will only declare war in response to aggression, but they are free to decide what they consider aggression, and corporations and individuals are not quite that free. "I shot him because he was saying things that made me uncomfortable" probably won't work as a defense in court, not yet anyway...

Again, collecting legally authorized taxes in legally authorized ways is not initiating aggression.
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: Using Deadly Force to Prevent Theft
Reply #244 - Nov 16th, 2018 at 10:44am
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Jeff wrote on Nov 16th, 2018 at 8:19am:
Corporations, just like individuals, are required by law not to initiate aggression.

Our governments are not granted any power to initiate aggression other than that Congress can declare war for whatever reason they choose. Hopefully they will only declare war in response to aggression, but they are free to decide what they consider aggression, and corporations and individuals are not quite that free. "I shot him because he was saying things that made me uncomfortable" probably won't work as a defense in court, not yet anyway...

Again, collecting legally authorized taxes in legally authorized ways is not initiating aggression.


Jeff, even you could not say with a straight face that going to someone's home and forcing them to leave it so the taxing authority can auction it for back taxes is not aggression.  So your point must be that it is not initiating aggression.  So who did initiate the aggression?

By your logic the only answer is that refusing to pay or even simply being unable to pay, the taxes is initiation of aggression.  In other words, not paying taxes is theft and the government does have the right to use force to prevent that theft, including deadly force if the "thief" (non-taxpayer) resists.

That's clearly what you believe, so why not just say it?

  

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Jeff
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Re: Using Deadly Force to Prevent Theft
Reply #245 - Nov 16th, 2018 at 4:17pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Nov 16th, 2018 at 10:44am:
Jeff, even you could not say with a straight face that going to someone's home and forcing them to leave it so the taxing authority can auction it for back taxes is not aggression.  So your point must be that it is not initiating aggression.  So who did initiate the aggression?

By your logic the only answer is that refusing to pay or even simply being unable to pay, the taxes is initiation of aggression.  In other words, not paying taxes is theft and the government does have the right to use force to prevent that theft, including deadly force if the "thief" (non-taxpayer) resists.

That's clearly what you believe, so why not just say it?

What I actually think is that not paying taxes is illegal, sometimes for good reason and sometimes not.

I don't see any way that refusing to pay taxes is aggression.

Please don't claim that refusal = aggression, unless you are willing to support the claim with a rational argument. Thanks.
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: Using Deadly Force to Prevent Theft
Reply #246 - Nov 16th, 2018 at 9:06pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 16th, 2018 at 4:17pm:
What I actually think is that not paying taxes is illegal, sometimes for good reason and sometimes not.

I don't see any way that refusing to pay taxes is aggression.

Please don't claim that refusal = aggression, unless you are willing to support the claim with a rational argument. Thanks.


No, no.  I agree that refusing/being unable to pay taxes is in no way an act of aggression.

So, when the taxman shows up with a deputy to throw a non-property tax payer out of his home in order to auction it off to satisfy the tax, who is the initiator of that aggression?
  

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Re: Using Deadly Force to Prevent Theft
Reply #247 - Nov 17th, 2018 at 1:12am
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Jeff wrote on Nov 16th, 2018 at 8:19am:
Our governments are not granted any power to initiate aggression other than that Congress can declare war for whatever reason they choose.


They have the power to take other peoples' stuff. If a regular person did that, you'd say it was wrong. See the double standard?

You harass me for supposedly not understanding such an easy principle as the NAP, when it's been proven time and again that libertarians shift what is, and is not aggression to suit your immediate needs.

For example, if you risk me, it's not aggression, but if I risk you, well then, risking someone else clearly is aggression.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Using Deadly Force to Prevent Theft
Reply #248 - Nov 17th, 2018 at 8:11am
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Little Big Man wrote on Nov 16th, 2018 at 9:06pm:
No, no.  I agree that refusing/being unable to pay taxes is in no way an act of aggression.

So, when the taxman shows up with a deputy to throw a non-property tax payer out of his home in order to auction it off to satisfy the tax, who is the initiator of that aggression?
The people who created the government and granted it the power to tax?

You are still arguing for anarchy. That will be much worse. It won't be just a few people not being able to afford their property taxes and losing their homes, it will be armed struggles by homeowners to hold onto their homes in the face of armed gangs or huge destructive riots or simply somebody coming in and shooting them and taking their home or some dictator gaining control and "nationalizing" everyone's property.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Using Deadly Force to Prevent Theft
Reply #249 - Nov 17th, 2018 at 8:21am
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 17th, 2018 at 1:12am:
They have the power to take other peoples' stuff. If a regular person did that, you'd say it was wrong. See the double standard?

No. Theft and legal taxation are two separate things. It would be a double standard if they taxed $20k from your wages and nothing from my wages, or taxed your companies profits at a different rate than they taxed the profits from Bob's business... Or if you were allowed to steal from your neighbors without being charged or prosecuted, while the neighbors were all held accountable to the law if they stole.

Those are double standards. What you mentioned are separate and different things.

I "took" from the companies I worked for, but it wasn't theft because I gave my labor in exchange.

My town "takes" money from me as taxes and uses the revenue to give me something in return, police, courts, a jail... It's not theft per se or by its nature, it only becomes theft when revenue collected from some individuals is given to other individuals or businesses who didn't earn it.


  

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