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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Affirmative Action - Use Individual IQ Instead (Read 736 times)
Jeff
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Re: Affirmative Action - Use Individual IQ Instead
Reply #10 - Sep 5th, 2018 at 4:51pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 5th, 2018 at 3:39pm:
Shouldn’t he pay at least half of his wealth in taxes so that the children of the people who build the roads that his limo drives on can go to school and try to be as smart as he is?
You say that simply because he is productive in spite of all his handicaps, he is still obligated to give half his earned wealth to government bureaucrats and political shills so they can divvy it up among themselves and their cronies and give some to unproductive people to buy votes?

Are you sure that's what you want?
  
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GEMorton
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Re: Affirmative Action - Use Individual IQ Instead
Reply #11 - Sep 5th, 2018 at 10:04pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 5th, 2018 at 3:39pm:
Shouldn’t he pay at least half of his wealth in taxes so that the children of the people who build the roads that his limo drives on can go to school and try to be as smart as he is?


He should pay taxes in accordance with the value of any benefits of public goods he utilizes or consumes, just as any other citizen. He has no duty to "equalize" any advantages/disadvantages between himself and others.
  
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GEMorton
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Re: Affirmative Action - Use Individual IQ Instead
Reply #12 - Sep 5th, 2018 at 10:44pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 5th, 2018 at 3:42pm:
Per the same moral principle that allows you and Jeff to advocate taking tax money by force.


I don't think so, SS. One may take money by force to recover money previously taken by force (or fraud or stealth) by the person now being forced, or to compensate for damages done by him, or to secure payment for the public goods he consumes --- all of which are justified by some previous unjust action by that agent. That principle clearly does not cover forcing anyone to pay for someone else's natural disadvantages, with which the persons to be forced had nothing to do.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Affirmative Action - Use Individual IQ Instead
Reply #13 - Sep 6th, 2018 at 10:48am
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GEMorton wrote on Sep 5th, 2018 at 10:44pm:
I don't think so, SS. One may take money by force to recover money previously taken by force (or fraud or stealth) by the person now being forced, or to compensate for damages done by him, or to secure payment for the public goods he consumes --- all of which are justified by some previous unjust action by that agent. That principle clearly does not cover forcing anyone to pay for someone else's natural disadvantages, with which the persons to be forced had nothing to do.


So, if you take my money by force to pay for police and military, what previous actions of mine are you compensating yourself for?
  

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The Opposition
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Re: Affirmative Action - Use Individual IQ Instead
Reply #14 - Sep 6th, 2018 at 1:09pm
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GEMorton wrote on Sep 5th, 2018 at 3:11pm:
Probably because there is no reason to "correct" differential natural advantages or disadvantages, by his method or any other.


SkyChief wrote on Sep 5th, 2018 at 1:05pm:
Affirmative Action is bullshit regardless what it's based on.


Right. If you're against social justice, there's no need for any Affirmative Actions.

But if you're for social justice, there's only need for one. Correcting success rates by race is nothing but dancing around the actual issue and hurting a lot of people who don't need to be hurt in the process.

No one is discriminating against you. There is no systemic bias. There is no one breathing hushed whispers in dark rooms about how your kind can't be allowed to succeed. If any of this was true, Asians would be failing hard, and they're not.

People just reach their hand into the same bag and pull out a bigger piece of fruit if their IQ is a few points higher. It's not rocket science. It's time to admit it.

GEMorton wrote on Sep 5th, 2018 at 10:04pm:
He has no duty to "equalize" any advantages/disadvantages between himself and others.


If you can sell this to the parents of any genius (who don't already believe it), not only will I take my hat off to you, I will build you a goddamn shrine.

GEMorton wrote on Sep 5th, 2018 at 10:04pm:
He should pay taxes in accordance with the value of any benefits of public goods he utilizes or consumes, just as any other citizen. He has no duty to "equalize" any advantages/disadvantages between himself and others.


If my IQ is higher, I get a much bigger benefit from living in the less violent world police protection creates.

Violent worlds tend to select for lower IQs, proving that the police are disproportionately advantaging higher IQs.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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SkyChief
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Re: Affirmative Action - Use Individual IQ Instead
Reply #15 - Sep 6th, 2018 at 4:26pm
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Affirmative action is nothing more than state-sponsored "positive" discrimination.

It is anti-libertarian because it assumes power be granted to the State to use coercion in the hiring practices of private businesses.

I expect all of you statist/authoritarians are ignorant this fact.  Grin
  
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Jeff
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Re: Affirmative Action - Use Individual IQ Instead
Reply #16 - Sep 6th, 2018 at 5:20pm
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SkyChief wrote on Sep 6th, 2018 at 4:26pm:
Affirmative action is nothing more than state-sponsored "positive" discrimination.

It is anti-libertarian because it assumes power be granted to the State to use coercion in the hiring practices of private businesses.

I expect all of you statist/authoritarians are ignorant this fact.  Grin
I've not followed this... Is the lizard claiming it should be forced to give more of it's wealth to the government(s)?

If the lizard was 21st Century moral, it would voluntarily give away or make available anything it didn't really "need".

Has it done that? No, I think not.
  
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genepool
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Re: Affirmative Action - Use Individual IQ Instead
Reply #17 - Sep 7th, 2018 at 2:31am
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Jeff wrote on Sep 6th, 2018 at 5:20pm:
I've not followed this... Is the lizard claiming it should be forced to give more of it's wealth to the government(s)?

If the lizard was 21st Century moral, it would voluntarily give away or make available anything it didn't really "need".

Has it done that? No, I think not.


I half agree.

It's still affirmative action and it's still sucks.

However, theopposition has a very good point.

If you want to recompensate for past wrong you should use IQ

With race, people can say, look black people used to be enslaved. Those slavery means they are poorer now. That means their parents are poor. Hence, they need to be "helped" now.

Does slavery in the past affect IQ in the present? No right. Your IQ is decided by your gene.

If people don't get rich because he came from a poor family he can blame slavery. If he doesn't get rich because of his IQ, what can he blames?

While weak, I think affirmative action have a case. The case here is that we're not fully libertarian yet. Minimum wage and job creation is also unfair.

If governments create jobs or subsidize jobs or make working more lucrative and then only white people have jobs, then I can understand why the blacks protests and demand affirmative action.

But that's as far as I go for affirmative action. The ultimate solution would be to just eliminate job creations.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Affirmative Action - Use Individual IQ Instead
Reply #18 - Sep 7th, 2018 at 6:59am
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genepool wrote on Sep 7th, 2018 at 2:31am:
However, theopposition has a very good point.

If you want to recompensate for past wrong you should use IQ
Shouldn't the idea of restitution be connected at least minimally to the idea of justice?

Why should I pay for some presumed wrongs done to people in the past?

One of my ancestors was drafted into the Union Army during the Civil War, suffered a severe case of PTSD and had to be cared for like a baby the rest of his life, which severely limited the chances of his poor farming family to be successful enough to be able to afford good nutrition for their children, which, as you know, has huge effects on IQ...

I think all his descendants should be compensated by the families of people who owned slaves and thus caused the Civil War, but only by the families of people who owned slaves, including the descendants of free Blacks who owned slaves... Doesn't justice demand that?
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Affirmative Action - Use Individual IQ Instead
Reply #19 - Sep 7th, 2018 at 9:52am
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Jeff wrote on Sep 5th, 2018 at 4:51pm:
You say that simply because he is productive in spite of all his handicaps, he is still obligated to give half his earned wealth to government bureaucrats and political shills so they can divvy it up among themselves and their cronies and give some to unproductive people to buy votes?

Are you sure that's what you want?


No, that is what anyone who advocates forced taxation wants.  Because that is what forced taxation leads to in every single case in history.


  

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