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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Affirmative Action - Use Individual IQ Instead (Read 737 times)
Jeff
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Re: Affirmative Action - Use Individual IQ Instead
Reply #50 - Sep 9th, 2018 at 8:26am
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GEMorton wrote on Sep 8th, 2018 at 11:26pm:
59% of federal and state inmates graduated high school or obtained GEDs. It didn't keep them out of prison.
As you mentioned, our current top down government monopolized public schools don't do a good job of actually educating children. Graduating from high school in many "progressive" big city school systems doesn't even guarantee that the graduates will be literate.

There are other factors involved, such as the vast harm that's been done by the "welfare" system and the "war on drugs", but it doesn't take statistics to understand that uneducated people are less likely to become productive members of the community than are people with an education.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Affirmative Action - Use Individual IQ Instead
Reply #51 - Sep 9th, 2018 at 8:30am
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GEMorton wrote on Sep 8th, 2018 at 11:26pm:
There are no "natural obligations." There are only natural behaviors. "Obligation" is a moral term, and any claim that someone has an obligation requires a moral argument.
Humans are, for the most part, moral beings, and they often feel obligations to children, even if the children are not their own.

I expect it's a natural mechanism tending to try to preserve the species.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Affirmative Action - Use Individual IQ Instead
Reply #52 - Sep 9th, 2018 at 8:33am
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 8th, 2018 at 11:40pm:
And you haven't answered whether or not it's permissible to have people solve Rubik's cubes to get police help. I'm not asking whether it's feasible or effective (I know it's not) I'm just asking whether placing intelligence hurdles is morally permissible. Or why not only help those whose IQs are above 129? Everyone gets the same risk reduction even if some people aren't helped, right?

(Also, and this is a gentleman's request, please explain to Jeff that I am not advocating the above ↑; I am using it to make a point. Because he will surely misinterpret.)
It seems to me that the point you want to make is that the human race could be "improved" by only protecting smart people and leaving everyone else to fend for themselves.
  
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GEMorton
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Re: Affirmative Action - Use Individual IQ Instead
Reply #53 - Sep 9th, 2018 at 11:53am
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Jeff wrote on Sep 9th, 2018 at 8:30am:
Humans are, for the most part, moral beings, and they often feel obligations to children, even if the children are not their own.


Feeling an obligation is not the same as having one. People who feel they have an obligation to do X will do X, if it is feasible for them. People who actually have an obligation to do X can be forced to do X (in some cases).

I can assure you that not everyone feels an obligation to educate other people's kids. So if you propose to force them to do so you'll need a moral argument establishing that they actually have such an obligation.

Are you suggesting that everyone has an obligation to do whatever is claimed to be necessary to preserve the species (a dubious claim in the case of education, since homo sapiens flourished for 200,000 years without formal, universal education).



  
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GEMorton
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Re: Affirmative Action - Use Individual IQ Instead
Reply #54 - Sep 9th, 2018 at 12:06pm
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 8th, 2018 at 11:40pm:
Do you think it's reasonable that these officers don't know what's likely to happen to them if they enforce in neighbourhoods where the level of noncompliance is unreasonably high and thus the use of force needed is excessive, coupled with the fact that those with the most rights, who are most dangerous to the officers' jobs because they have the moral and legal backing to demand someone who crossed them be punished, are clustered in these areas?


Yes, they know what's likely to happen to them. Nothing, because most of those accusations are frivolous. Moreover, worrying about them is above their pay grade.

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And you haven't answered whether or not it's permissible to have people solve Rubik's cubes to get police help.


I didn't answer because the relevance of the question to this discussion eludes me.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Affirmative Action - Use Individual IQ Instead
Reply #55 - Sep 9th, 2018 at 2:12pm
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GEMorton wrote on Sep 9th, 2018 at 11:53am:
I can assure you that not everyone feels an obligation to educate other people's kids.
That's very true.

Some people don't feel any obligation to any children, including their own.

While you stew over the morality of forcing some individuals who don't want to pay to educate any children  to pay taxes for schools, I will continue to think its moral to use local property taxes to educate all the children in a community because of the tangible benefits in maintaining a civilized community full (mostly) of productive self actualized adults.

If you insist on moral absolutes in every instance, you will toss out the good in hope of achieving the perfect, and will end up making things worse. The cause of individual liberty can often be best served by considering that individuals live in communities of other individuals.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Affirmative Action - Use Individual IQ Instead
Reply #56 - Sep 9th, 2018 at 8:20pm
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GEMorton wrote on Sep 9th, 2018 at 12:06pm:
Yes, they know what's likely to happen to them. Nothing, because most of those accusations are frivolous. Moreover, worrying about them is above their pay grade.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/police-forced-marriage-fear-racism-a...

Racism accusations may be frivolous to you, but they're deadly serious to cops, and they do stop them from investigating crime.

GEMorton wrote on Sep 9th, 2018 at 12:06pm:
I didn't answer because the relevance of the question to this discussion eludes me.


Because you've said it's permissible for the policing service to benefit some more than others. You've also said it's okay if that benefit is distributed by intellect. So it seems to me that having people solve Rubik's cubes to get help, regardless of whether it is efficient, would be permissible, by what you've said, not me.

And I wish you would explain to Jeff that I am not advocating that people have to do this. I'm advocating that people with higher intelligence pay higher taxes because they reap a bigger benefit from the non-violent world police protection creates.

Jeff wrote on Sep 8th, 2018 at 9:17am:
When would the "catch-up measures" be applied?

What if Sally had an only average IQ, but worked diligently all through school and graduated at the top of her class, while Bobby, who had a genius level IQ, wasn't interested in studying or working hard, and therefore graduated well down from the number one spot?


Bobby would have the penalty and Sally would not.

Jeff wrote on Sep 8th, 2018 at 9:17am:
What if Bobby then had a great idea for a new product or business, and got really rich in a matter of only a few years, while Sally, after getting a PhD in something, decided to get married and raise a family, and her husband was a not very successful writer, so they were poor?


Bobby is the one who gets hit by the penalty, never Sally.

Jeff wrote on Sep 8th, 2018 at 9:17am:
BTW, what sort of "catch-up measures" do you have in mind?


Higher taxes. This is better than Affirmative Action because you won't have people with cognitive impasses in jobs they can't do because it's just not right that they can't succeed equally.

Let Bobby have the best job, if the employer wants Bobby. Even if he's a bit lazy, the sad truth is that the hare beats the tortoise in real life. So tax him out his ass until he's not "succeeding" any more than Sally.

This solves every inequality problem Affirmative Action does, only better and with less collateral damage.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Affirmative Action - Use Individual IQ Instead
Reply #57 - Sep 10th, 2018 at 8:10am
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 9th, 2018 at 8:20pm:
Bobby is the one who gets hit by the penalty, never Sally.


Higher taxes. This is better than Affirmative Action because you won't have people with cognitive impasses in jobs they can't do because it's just not right that they can't succeed equally.

Let Bobby have the best job, if the employer wants Bobby. Even if he's a bit lazy, the sad truth is that the hare beats the tortoise in real life. So tax him out his ass until he's not "succeeding" any more than Sally.

This solves every inequality problem Affirmative Action does, only better and with less collateral damage.
Sally is already doing better than Bobby. Bobby, being a lazy sort of genius, never capitalized on his great idea other than to sell it to someone else, then he squandered the money he got on wine women and song, and nobody will hire him because he has no work history at all and keeps telling people who interview him that he's a genius and can run their business better than their current CEO, and that's the only job he'll accept. Cheesy

You can't tax Bobby because he doesn't earn any money.

You wonderful new idea really amounts to nothing other than taxing the successful until they are as poor as people who never worked at all.


  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Affirmative Action - Use Individual IQ Instead
Reply #58 - Sep 10th, 2018 at 11:45am
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Jeff wrote on Sep 9th, 2018 at 2:12pm:
That's very true.

Some people don't feel any obligation to any children, including their own.

While you stew over the morality of forcing some individuals who don't want to pay to educate any children  to pay taxes for schools, I will continue to think its moral to use local property taxes to educate all the children in a community because of the tangible benefits in maintaining a civilized community full (mostly) of productive self actualized adults.

If you insist on moral absolutes in every instance, you will toss out the good in hope of achieving the perfect, and will end up making things worse. The cause of individual liberty can often be best served by considering that individuals live in communities of other individuals.


What's the difference between that and socialism? 

How can you support taxpayer funded public schools, but say that taxpayer funded public school lunches are an outrage?


  

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Re: Affirmative Action - Use Individual IQ Instead
Reply #59 - Sep 10th, 2018 at 12:32pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 9th, 2018 at 2:12pm:
That's very true.

Some people don't feel any obligation to any children, including their own.


People do have an obligation to their own children, whether they feel one or not. Conversely, they have no obligation to others' children, beyond the universal obligation not to violate their rights, whether they feel one or not. Whether an obligation exists is not a matter of feelings.

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While you stew over the morality of forcing some individuals who don't want to pay to educate any children  to pay taxes for schools, I will continue to think its moral to use local property taxes to educate all the children in a community because of the tangible benefits in maintaining a civilized community full (mostly) of productive self actualized adults.


You realize, don't you, that your rationale there can justify every free lunch scheme the lefties can dream up?

To justify forcing Alfie to pay for educating Bruno's kid you need to show that Alfie benefits from educating Bruno's kid, not merely that there are "tangible benefits" (to someone), and that Alfie cannot opt out of receiving those benefits. In general, those conditions obtain only with respect to certain public goods (education is not a public good).

Alfie can argue, persuasively, that he does not benefit from educating Bruno's kid. You must then argue that Alfie has some duty to pay for things which only benefit others, or arbitrarily insist that he benefits, despite his denial that he does and the lack of any objective evidence that he does. Few libertarians would deem the latter "moral."

Here is a paper exploring these issues:

https://www.philosophy.northwestern.edu/community/nustep/10/papers/Lau.pdf

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If you insist on moral absolutes in every instance, you will toss out the good in hope of achieving the perfect, and will end up making things worse. The cause of individual liberty can often be best served by considering that individuals live in communities of other individuals.


Yes, they do. That fact does not entail a duty upon any of them to deliver others free lunches.
  
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