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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Affirmative Action - Use Individual IQ Instead (Read 735 times)
GEMorton
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Re: Affirmative Action - Use Individual IQ Instead
Reply #60 - Sep 10th, 2018 at 1:18pm
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 9th, 2018 at 8:20pm:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/police-forced-marriage-fear-racism-a...

Racism accusations may be frivolous to you, but they're deadly serious to cops, and they do stop them from investigating crime.


The opinions of advocates does not constitute evidence that the police are worried about "racism" charges, or that it has curtailed crime investigations. There is also a chicken-and-egg problem: the frequency of accusations typically follows an intensification of police activity in a neighborhood. There are more complaints because there are more cops interacting with more people.

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Because you've said it's permissible for the policing service to benefit some more than others.


Yes. Every service, offered by anyone, will benefit some more than others, because some have no use for the service and others are better equipped than others to make use of it.

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You've also said it's okay if that benefit is distributed by intellect.


Er, no. The benefit is not distributed according to intellect; though intellect may be a factor in how effectively it is utilized. The former would be the doing of the grantor;  the latter is the doing of the grantee. You're again trying to hold police (or third parties, such as taxpayers) accountable individual differences among grantees, and presuming the grantors have some duty to mitigate the effects of those differences. They don't.

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So it seems to me that having people solve Rubik's cubes to get help, regardless of whether it is efficient, would be permissible, by what you've said, not me.


Er, no. Implementing any sort of test to determine who gets benefits would be a differentiating action by the police. Offering the same benefits to everyone is not.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Affirmative Action - Use Individual IQ Instead
Reply #61 - Sep 10th, 2018 at 1:23pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 10th, 2018 at 8:10am:
You can't tax Bobby because he doesn't earn any money.


He earns something. He's eating somehow. He can eat less.

Jeff wrote on Sep 10th, 2018 at 8:10am:
You wonderful new idea really amounts to nothing other than taxing the successful until they are as poor as people who never worked at all.


And Affirmative Action is worse. Yes, if the status quo (Affirmative Action) is to put people into jobs who can't do them, why is it so hard for you to understand that everyone is better off if you let the people who can do the jobs actually do them and just tax those people more?

The person who would have got the job under Affirmative Action is better off because they still gain the excess pay of a "good" job.

The person who actually deserves the job is better off because he's doing a job that's suited to his talents. He doesn't make more money, but he is more fulfilled.

The world is better off because having the person in the high-skilled job who can actually do it benefits the entire economy.

This is a pure benefit over Affirmative Action. There are no tradeoffs. No one is hurt. Everyone benefits when compared to the status quo of Affirmative Action. Argue that there should be no catchup measures whatsoever if you like, but I believe it was you who brought up the perfect being the potential enemy of the good, in some capacity.

If you can find a policy change that helps everyone and hurts no one, why the %$&# wouldn't you support it?
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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The Opposition
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Re: Affirmative Action - Use Individual IQ Instead
Reply #62 - Sep 10th, 2018 at 1:31pm
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GEMorton wrote on Sep 10th, 2018 at 1:18pm:
The opinions of advocates does not constitute evidence that the police are worried about "racism" charges, or that it has curtailed crime investigations. There is also a chicken-and-egg problem: the frequency of accusations typically follows an intensification of police activity in a neighborhood. There are more complaints because there are more cops interacting with more people.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/08/police-afraid-racism-complaints-use-...

Here's another one with testimony from the head of Scotland Yard that her officers do fear racism charges.

GEMorton wrote on Sep 10th, 2018 at 1:18pm:
Er, no. The benefit is not distributed according to intellect; though intellect may be a factor in how effectively it is utilized. The former would be the doing of the grantor;  the latter is the doing of the grantee. You're again trying to hold police (or third parties, such as taxpayers) accountable individual differences among grantees, and presuming the grantors have some duty to mitigate the effects of those differences. They don't.


GEMorton wrote on Sep 10th, 2018 at 1:18pm:
Implementing any sort of test to determine who gets benefits would be a differentiating action by the police. Offering the same benefits to everyone is not.


Everyone may call the police if they demonstrate they can solve a Rubik's cube in one minute or less. This is an identical grant of a benefit. Some people will just make better use of it than others. The police, you've said, have no duty to mitigate the effect of those differences.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Affirmative Action - Use Individual IQ Instead
Reply #63 - Sep 10th, 2018 at 3:18pm
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 10th, 2018 at 1:23pm:
He earns something. He's eating somehow. He can eat less.


I didn't notice that you said there was no welfare...
  
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Jeff
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Re: Affirmative Action - Use Individual IQ Instead
Reply #64 - Sep 10th, 2018 at 3:25pm
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 10th, 2018 at 1:23pm:
Yes, if the status quo (Affirmative Action) is to put people into jobs who can't do them, why is it so hard for you to understand that everyone is better off if you let the people who can do the jobs actually do them and just tax those people more?

You create a huge disincentive to work and then imagine it will make everyone better off?

Assuming that you are correct that affirmative action puts people in jobs that are above their abilities (aren't those mostly unproductive government jobs anyway?), that doesn't mean they are doing nothing, and the problem of people being promoted to their level of incompetence, especially in big companies, has been around for a long time and doesn't have anything to do with affirmative action.
  
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GEMorton
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Re: Affirmative Action - Use Individual IQ Instead
Reply #65 - Sep 10th, 2018 at 7:49pm
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 10th, 2018 at 1:31pm:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/08/police-afraid-racism-complaints-use-...

Here's another one with testimony from the head of Scotland Yard that her officers do fear racism charges.


From the article, it appears that fear was based on their political bosses' responses to those charges (that they would be more inclined to placate the whiners than their own employees). That rarely occurs in the US --- police brass do not discipline cops unless there is compelling evidence of a policy violation. Public whining does not sway them.

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Everyone may call the police if they demonstrate they can solve a Rubik's cube in one minute or less. This is an identical grant of a benefit.


No, it is not. The benefit is police services. You're describing an eligibility test to receive that benefit; the test itself is not a benefit, and requiring it denies police services to some persons. If they offer the same services to all persons, they are not denying anyone. That some will benefit more is not of their doing and not their problem.

You're really reaching with this one, SS. (Oops, should have been, "Oppo." Sorry, SS).
« Last Edit: Sep 11th, 2018 at 12:31pm by GEMorton »  
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Jeff
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Re: Affirmative Action - Use Individual IQ Instead
Reply #66 - Sep 11th, 2018 at 8:21am
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GEMorton wrote on Sep 10th, 2018 at 7:49pm:
From the article, it appears that fear was based on their political bosses' responses to those charges (that they would be more inclined to placate the whiners than their own employees). That rarely occurs in the US --- police brass do not discipline cops unless there is compelling evidence of a policy violation.
Don't they all have policies against racism? Isn't arresting black people in disproportionate numbers considered evidence of racism?
  
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GEMorton
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Re: Affirmative Action - Use Individual IQ Instead
Reply #67 - Sep 11th, 2018 at 12:30pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 11th, 2018 at 8:21am:
Don't they all have policies against racism? Isn't arresting black people in disproportionate numbers considered evidence of racism?


It is by misguided "social justice" warriors and other statists. The rub comes in their specious definition of "disproportionate." They take it as evidence of "racism" if the number of arrests of minorities is disproportionate to their fraction of the population. Which is completely irrelevant. What matters, and what would indicate racism, is that arrests of minorities are disproportionate to the number of crimes they commit. Which it isn't.

  
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Re: Affirmative Action - Use Individual IQ Instead
Reply #68 - Sep 11th, 2018 at 2:22pm
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GEMorton wrote on Sep 11th, 2018 at 12:30pm:
It is by misguided "social justice" warriors and other statists. The rub comes in their specious definition of "disproportionate." They take it as evidence of "racism" if the number of arrests of minorities is disproportionate to their fraction of the population. Which is completely irrelevant. What matters, and what would indicate racism, is that arrests of minorities are disproportionate to the number of crimes they commit. Which it isn't.

OK, but if police are going to be accused of racism, it's going to affect how they do their jobs.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Affirmative Action - Use Individual IQ Instead
Reply #69 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 1:19pm
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GEMorton wrote on Sep 10th, 2018 at 7:49pm:
No, it is not. The benefit is police services. You're describing an eligibility test to receive that benefit; the test itself is not a benefit, and requiring it denies police services to some persons. If they offer the same services to all persons, they are not denying anyone. That some will benefit more is not of their doing and not their problem.

You're really reaching with this one, SS. (Oops, should have been, "Oppo." Sorry, SS).


I don't think it's reaching at all. They're offering the same service to all persons: Police protection if you can solve a Rubik's cube. Why is this different than police protection if you know your rights, or police protection if you don't live in a bad neighbourhood?

I think this is impermissible. I don't think it's acceptable to take tax money from all and then have that tax money put to a use that reorders the winners and losers. At very least, the winners put on top by this process should pay more.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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