Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › When has Government Ever Worked?
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 35 Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) When has Government Ever Worked? (Read 2721 times)
Snarky Sack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 4246
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
When has Government Ever Worked?
Sep 5th, 2018 at 11:24am
Print Post  
Some of the libertarians on the statist end of the libertarians spectrum keep insisting that government can have the power to tax and can remain limited to the powers specifically granted by the people and not become an intrusive force in their lives.

Sure, hypothetically it could happen.

Can anyone give three or four examples of when it has happened?
  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ahhell
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 2132
Joined: Sep 21st, 2016
Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #1 - Sep 5th, 2018 at 11:51am
Print Post  
Now, long term, all governments either become authoritarian or collapse.  Can you find three examples of governments that didn't have the power to tax but lasted longer than a generation?

Absent the power to tax, a government would quickly cease to be the government and would be replaced by the entities that took the power to tax onto themselves.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Snarky Sack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 4246
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #2 - Sep 5th, 2018 at 12:03pm
Print Post  
ahhell wrote on Sep 5th, 2018 at 11:51am:
Now, long term, all governments either become authoritarian or collapse.  Can you find three examples of governments that didn't have the power to tax but lasted longer than a generation?


No, it's new idea.

Quote:
Absent the power to tax, a government would quickly cease to be the government and would be replaced by the entities that took the power to tax onto themselves. 


Then the free people would voluntarily and temporarily join with the government they control in standing up to those tax power claimers.  If the people are wise, they will realize that such people should be killed in place since no effort at rehabilitation would be effective.


  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ahhell
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 2132
Joined: Sep 21st, 2016
Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #3 - Sep 5th, 2018 at 12:19pm
Print Post  
That's an interesting world you imagine, shame it doesn't exist on Earth.  History has pretty clearly shown that folks generally just knuckle under to the guys with clubs, swords, or guns.  I'd rather some sort of democratic government with limits written into its governing documents that has greater power than any other entity in society.  That pretty much requires taxation.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Snarky Sack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 4246
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #4 - Sep 5th, 2018 at 12:34pm
Print Post  
ahhell wrote on Sep 5th, 2018 at 12:19pm:
That's an interesting world you imagine, shame it doesn't exist on Earth.  History has pretty clearly shown that folks generally just knuckle under to the guys with clubs, swords, or guns.  I'd rather some sort of democratic government with limits written into its governing documents that has greater power than any other entity in society.  That pretty much requires taxation.


Been tried countless times.  Always degenerates into what we have now.

Where would the government you describe derive its right to tax people?


  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SkyChief
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 7913
Location: California Coast
Joined: Aug 18th, 2014
Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #5 - Sep 5th, 2018 at 12:55pm
Print Post  
Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 5th, 2018 at 11:24am:
Some of the libertarians on the statist end of the libertarians spectrum keep insisting that government can have the power to tax and can remain limited to the powers specifically granted by the people and not become an intrusive force in their lives.

Sure, hypothetically it could happen.

Can anyone give three or four examples of when it has happened?

I can give one:

Pre-16th Amendment United States. [pre 1913]  

The government HAD been granted the power to levy taxes, duties, and tariffs. And (for the most part) they did so responsibly without intruding into peoples lives.

The 16th Amendment changed that.

The Law (based on Marxism) granted government the power to progressively tax a man's earnings, forcing the wage earner to limit his production in order to minimize income tax liability.

Dumb idea!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Snarky Sack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 4246
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #6 - Sep 5th, 2018 at 2:09pm
Print Post  
SkyChief wrote on Sep 5th, 2018 at 12:55pm:
I can give one:

Pre-16th Amendment United States. [pre 1913]  

The government HAD been granted the power to levy taxes, duties, and tariffs. And (for the most part) they did so responsibly without intruding into peoples lives.

The 16th Amendment changed that.


I think there might be several people who lived in the U.S. from 1788 when the Constitution was ratified and 1913, when the 16th Amendment was ratified who would disagree that federal government taxed responsibly and did not intrude into people's lives. People living in Atlanta in 1864 and small whiskey distiller in the 1790's come to mind.

But since each case I bring up would surely be met with, "that was justified!" and since you did say "for the most part," let's say you are correct.  The government changed in 1913.  If I had been there I would have been the obnoxious guy saying, "I told ya so!"

It's inevitable.  Once government gets a taste of taxation by force, they sooner or later stop worrying about what works, stop worrying about what's fair and and just focus on "what can we do?"

Quote:
The Law (based on Marxism) granted government the power to progressively tax a man's earnings, forcing the wage earner to limit his production in order to minimize income tax liability.

Dumb idea!


I'll grant you that the founders had no way to anticipate socialism.

In my view socialism came about because the industrial revolution led to a more educated and more productive population who would no longer be led by the divine right of kings.  So people who once were the administrators of a king's power sold themselves to the public as the administrators of the people's right to get a fair share of the wealth. Support me and I'll make sure you get yours, free market be damned! 

It worked in spades and Marxism was a further outgrowth of that.
  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 35675
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #7 - Sep 5th, 2018 at 4:11pm
Print Post  
Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 5th, 2018 at 2:09pm:
If I had been there I would have been the obnoxious guy saying, "I told ya so!"

It's inevitable.  Once government gets a taste of taxation by force, they sooner or later stop worrying about what works, stop worrying about what's fair and and just focus on "what can we do?"


I'll grant you that the founders had no way to anticipate socialism.


The Founders knew all about what they called "the leveling impulse".

When Teddy Roosevelt was, he asked 'Is there any law that says I can't make that piece of territory into a National Park? OK, then I will'.

He cared nothing about the law written into the Constitution. He was a "progressive", and an "elite" to boot.

Why wasn't he stomped down immediately by freedom loving people? Because they were busy with their own lives and it didn't affect them immediately. If they learned of it, they probably thought it was nice to have really cool National Parks, and never gave a thought to the usurpation of power that occurred.


You blame free people going about their lives in peace and minding their own business for the crimes of elite progressive politicians.

Please think again.

Edit: Thinking about what's "fair" is what levelers do.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SkyChief
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 7913
Location: California Coast
Joined: Aug 18th, 2014
Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #8 - Sep 5th, 2018 at 8:26pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Sep 5th, 2018 at 4:11pm:
Why wasn't [Teddy] stomped down immediately by freedom loving people? Because they were busy with their own lives and it didn't affect them immediately..

And it was this same apathy with the 16th Amendment.

Had the people known what was in store for them with income taxes, the States would not have ratified it.

The people were hoodwinked by the progressives.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 35675
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #9 - Sep 6th, 2018 at 6:39am
Print Post  
SkyChief wrote on Sep 5th, 2018 at 8:26pm:
And it was this same apathy with the 16th Amendment.

Had the people known what was in store for them with income taxes, the States would not have ratified it.

The people were hoodwinked by the progressives.
Chief, the Pollock decision said it was unconstitutional for Congress to tax profits except by an apportioned tax, which meant that the burden of taxation would fall on working people earning wages and salaries, at least until the S.Ct. was asked to rule on the legality of taxing wages and salaries without apportionment, which hasn't been done yet.

The 16th Amendment was ratified so that Congress could once again tax profits without apportionment.

The fact that it was misrepresented as allowing Direct taxation without apportionment is another matter, but that's not what the 16th actually did, it simply returned the power to tax profits without apportionment to Congress, a power that had existed since the beginning.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 35
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › When has Government Ever Worked?
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy