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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) When has Government Ever Worked? (Read 2720 times)
Snarky Sack
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #10 - Sep 6th, 2018 at 9:30am
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Jeff wrote on Sep 5th, 2018 at 4:11pm:
The Founders knew all about what they called "the leveling impulse".

When Teddy Roosevelt was, he asked 'Is there any law that says I can't make that piece of territory into a National Park? OK, then I will'.

He cared nothing about the law written into the Constitution. He was a "progressive", and an "elite" to boot.

Why wasn't he stomped down immediately by freedom loving people? Because they were busy with their own lives and it didn't affect them immediately. If they learned of it, they probably thought it was nice to have really cool National Parks, and never gave a thought to the usurpation of power that occurred.


That was their mistake.  Just as it is your mistake to think it is nice to have really cool public schools and a powerful military and stalwart and honest local police so we can let govermnment rob us for those limited purposes.

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You blame free people going about their lives in peace and minding their own business for the crimes of elite progressive politicians.



I do blame them, and I include myself among the blame-worthy.

They weren’t minding all of their business, the were only minding the profit-making part of their business.  They took their eye off the ball when it came to guarding their liberties, preferring to leave that to others.  It very predictably didn’t work.

In frontier towns, they got along without government, creating and trading wealth on a handshake and defending themselves as individuals by being judiciously armed.

At some point they realized that they could earn more if they earned with both hands, digging for gold, selling dry goods, pouring whiskey or whatever profitable activities they found.  So they hired sheriffs to carry the guns while they focused on profit.

That worked great right up to the moment the sheriff realized that having a monopoly on force meant he could force a higher salary, nicer jail, more deputies to collect the taxes for him and it inevitably spriralled out of control.


  

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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #11 - Sep 6th, 2018 at 10:48am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 6th, 2018 at 9:30am:
That was their mistake.  Just as it is your mistake to think it is nice to have really cool public schools and a powerful military and stalwart and honest local police so we can let govermnment rob us for those limited purposes.


I do blame them, and I include myself among the blame-worthy.

They weren’t minding all of their business, the were only minding the profit-making part of their business.  They took their eye off the ball when it came to guarding their liberties, preferring to leave that to others.  It very predictably didn’t work.

In frontier towns, they got along without government, creating and trading wealth on a handshake and defending themselves as individuals by being judiciously armed.

At some point they realized that they could earn more if they earned with both hands, digging for gold, selling dry goods, pouring whiskey or whatever profitable activities they found.  So they hired sheriffs to carry the guns while they focused on profit.

That worked great right up to the moment the sheriff realized that having a monopoly on force meant he could force a higher salary, nicer jail, more deputies to collect the taxes for him and it inevitably spriralled out of control.


You keep constructing fantasy worlds. I don't think they help your claims.

Working for a living, raising a family, making and keeping friends, planning for the future etc. take up most of most peoples time. Hobbies and sports and exercise can take up more.

If people bother to vote, they make an assumption that the people running for office will obey the law, just like they make the assumption that most people they meet in everyday life will obey the law.

Most people are not lawyers, but they assume that Judges and Justices will follow and uphold the law.

In the Progressive Era, there was a constant barrage of propaganda from "elites" lauding the benefits of "progressive" government, including much from respected academics, "experts" in the fields of government and economics and finance telling everyone that economic pain could be avoided by careful control by the government, and that hunger and sickness and human suffering and poverty could be eliminated by careful government planning...

What hard working farmer or factory worker would, or could, question them?

Americans gave them their trust, and when the first "Income Tax Law" was enacted, it took only a small percentage from "the rich" and made working people completely exempt from the tax. (Of course working people didn't need "exemptions" because they almost never had incomes. If they would have had incomes, they probably wouldn't have been working...).

Who would complain? How could they gain standing in the courts, even if they understood the illegality of the tax as it would apply to wages and salaries?

Social Security was snuck into the tent by trickery also, promoted as a plan to provide for destitute widows and orphans that would take only a very small amount from each working person to help orphans and widows (and not rich widows, just destitute widows)... Who would object?

What about the Great Society? Some temporary programs to raise people out of the cycle of poverty and help them become productive citizens?

Those who objected to any of these things were vilified as heartless selfish monsters. (Evil libertarians even!)

Put the blame where it belongs, on elected officials who broke the law that governs their actions in office, deceived the American people and usurped powers not granted to them.

You say that ordinary people are to blame because they didn't take up arms against the government when the first "Income Tax Law" was enacted? Cheesy
  
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #12 - Sep 6th, 2018 at 11:38am
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Jeff wrote on Sep 6th, 2018 at 6:39am:
Chief, the Pollock decision said it was unconstitutional for Congress to tax profits except by an apportioned tax, which meant that the burden of taxation would fall on working people earning wages and salaries, at least until the S.Ct. was asked to rule on the legality of taxing wages and salaries without apportionment, which hasn't been done yet.

The 16th Amendment was ratified so that Congress could once again tax profits without apportionment.

Yes, yes,   I understand the legality of the Law.

My point is, it never should have been ratified.  It is a stupid Law designed to make government more powerful.

I says so in plain English!!:

"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes..."

What freedom-loving citizen wants to grant POWER to the government?

We are not imbeciles.  We got hoodwinked.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #13 - Sep 6th, 2018 at 1:01pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 6th, 2018 at 10:48am:
You keep constructing fantasy worlds. I don't think they help your claims.

Working for a living, raising a family, making and keeping friends, planning for the future etc. take up most of most peoples time. Hobbies and sports and exercise can take up more.

If people bother to vote, they make an assumption that the people running for office will obey the law, just like they make the assumption that most people they meet in everyday life will obey the law.

Most people are not lawyers, but they assume that Judges and Justices will follow and uphold the law.

In the Progressive Era, there was a constant barrage of propaganda from "elites" lauding the benefits of "progressive" government, including much from respected academics, "experts" in the fields of government and economics and finance telling everyone that economic pain could be avoided by careful control by the government, and that hunger and sickness and human suffering and poverty could be eliminated by careful government planning...

What hard working farmer or factory worker would, or could, question them?

Americans gave them their trust, and when the first "Income Tax Law" was enacted, it took only a small percentage from "the rich" and made working people completely exempt from the tax. (Of course working people didn't need "exemptions" because they almost never had incomes. If they would have had incomes, they probably wouldn't have been working...).


They trusted government to steal from, "those other folks."  Hard not to say that they got what they deserved when it backfired on them.

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Who would complain? How could they gain standing in the courts, even if they understood the illegality of the tax as it would apply to wages and salaries?

Social Security was snuck into the tent by trickery also, promoted as a plan to provide for destitute widows and orphans that would take only a very small amount from each working person to help orphans and widows (and not rich widows, just destitute widows)... Who would object?

What about the Great Society? Some temporary programs to raise people out of the cycle of poverty and help them become productive citizens?

Those who objected to any of these things were vilified as heartless selfish monsters. (Evil libertarians even!)

Put the blame where it belongs, on elected officials who broke the law that governs their actions in office, deceived the American people and usurped powers not granted to them.


Right.  That's what governments always do.

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You say that ordinary people are to blame because they didn't take up arms against the government when the first "Income Tax Law" was enacted? Cheesy


No, because it was way too late by then.  People did take up arms against the whiskey tax and the rebellion was completely successful.  They should have stayed on that roll.


  

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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #14 - Sep 6th, 2018 at 3:17pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 6th, 2018 at 1:01pm:
They trusted government to steal from, "those other folks."
No, it was required that any Direct tax be apportioned, which meant everyone would pay the same amount, and that any Indirect tax would be uniform, so it would reach every person in business at the same rate.

It wasn't until "progressives" took over that progressive tax rates and exempting some people while taxing others became the rule.

It is "progressives" who steal from some to reward themselves and others, not the Founders.
  
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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #15 - Sep 6th, 2018 at 3:19pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 6th, 2018 at 1:01pm:
No, because it was way too late by then.  People did take up arms against the whiskey tax and the rebellion was completely successful.  They should have stayed on that roll.


They were rebelling against an indirect tax that was not uniformly applied, not taxation in general.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #16 - Sep 7th, 2018 at 9:58am
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Jeff wrote on Sep 6th, 2018 at 3:19pm:
They were rebelling against an indirect tax that was not uniformly applied, not taxation in general.


So you only support taxes that are uniformly applied?  Very egalitarian, yes.

What are some of the existing taxes that are uniformly applied?  Don't list them all, I'm sure that would take way too long. 

Just four or five existing taxes that are uniformly applied, please and thank you.



  

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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #17 - Sep 7th, 2018 at 4:14pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 7th, 2018 at 9:58am:
So you only support taxes that are uniformly applied?
It's not a matter of my support.

I recognize that Indirect taxes must be uniform, while Direct taxes need only be apportioned.
  
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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #18 - Sep 7th, 2018 at 4:16pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 7th, 2018 at 9:58am:
Very egalitarian, yes.


Gee Red, I'm a libertarian who would most properly (In my opinion) be called a classical liberal. There are many ideas of equality involved in what I believe, but the primary two are equal rights and equality under the law.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #19 - Sep 10th, 2018 at 7:52am
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Earth to Jeff?

  

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