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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) When has Government Ever Worked? (Read 2714 times)
Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #20 - Sep 10th, 2018 at 8:42am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 10th, 2018 at 7:52am:
Earth to Jeff?

I'm on Voltar Red, but communications between Earth and Voltar are very good... Go ahead.

I suppose you need me to say (again) that the limitations on the taxing power are not being respected, so there are no Indirect taxes that are currently applied uniformly, while there are Direct taxes that are being applied without being apportioned.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #21 - Sep 10th, 2018 at 10:32am
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Jeff wrote on Sep 10th, 2018 at 8:42am:
I suppose you need me to say (again) that the limitations on the taxing power are not being respected, so there are no Indirect taxes that are currently applied uniformly, while there are Direct taxes that are being applied without being apportioned.


Yes, but you keep alternating between admitting that the current system has failed and staunchly defending the status quo.

Or I guess my difference with you is  that you seem unwilling to learn from the fact that your idea that apportioned taxes will keep taxes uniform has never worked. 

The word "apportioned" is vague enough that any taxes can be said to be apportioned.  A politician could literally say, "My proposed tax will absolutely be apportioned.  I've apportioned  the large majority of the taxes to people who usually vote against me, the rest to people who don't vote at all and I've apportioned none to people who vote for me.

I'm not really sure about the moral difference between direct taxes and indirect taxes as seen by you, the chief and GEMorton, maybe.  I would think that a direct tax, such as income tax, would be more likely to lead to resistance than an indirect one such as gasoline.  Plus, an indirect tax, such as a sales tax, not only steals but also forces merchants to work for free as tax collectors.  Involuntary servitude.

The idea that we can avoid the gasoline tax is absurd.  Even if we take the subway, nearly every product we purchase has been transported using gasoline (or Diesel, which is also taxed), so the taxes are added to the price.



  

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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #22 - Sep 10th, 2018 at 2:07pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 5th, 2018 at 11:24am:
Sure, hypothetically it could happen.


I don't believe any society, government or no, can endure.

Societies increase efficiency and create excess. Excess attracts resource transferers, who prosper over resource obtainers.

Natural selection increases the proportion of resource transferers in society until society runs out of resources. Whether people are vote-buyers, financiers collecting fees, or welfare queens, they don't stop prospering over people who produce resources until the resources have run out and all is lost anyway.

This is not a variation on Marx. This is a simple statement about parasitism.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #23 - Sep 10th, 2018 at 3:31pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 10th, 2018 at 10:32am:
Yes, but you keep alternating between admitting that the current system has failed and staunchly defending the status quo.


The status quo is that the limitations on the taxing power are not being followed, which is why taxes are not being kept low.

I am doing the opposite of defending the status quo, I am advocating for the limitations on the taxing power to be followed.
  
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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #24 - Sep 10th, 2018 at 3:36pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 10th, 2018 at 10:32am:
The word "apportioned" is vague enough that any taxes can be said to be apportioned.
If that is true, then the apportionment of representatives according to the census is also "vague". Is that your contention?

Could a politician say that a plan for apportionment of representatives would be to give people more votes if they were rich than if they were poor?

"Apportioned" is derived from the same root as proportional... Is "proportional" also too vague for you?
  
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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #25 - Sep 10th, 2018 at 3:49pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 10th, 2018 at 10:32am:
I'm not really sure about the moral difference between direct taxes and indirect taxes as seen by you...
I'll try again.

Direct taxes are taxes on property merely because of it's ownership. They must be paid by the owner of the property using a portion of that property to pay the tax.

Indirect taxes are taxes on profits derived from the use of property and can be paid out of the profits without requiring that the property be sold to pay the tax.

To tax a persons wages is a Direct tax which takes part of the fruits of the persons labor, which is the person's property.

To tax the profits earned by invested property takes part of the profits earned by the property.

You can get tangled up in it, but the important difference is that exchanging your work for wages is categorically different than investing your property and having it earn dividends
without you having to work for the dividends.

For the first, you have to work to earn wages.

For the second, your property earns profits for you.



  
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #26 - Sep 11th, 2018 at 12:34pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 10th, 2018 at 3:36pm:
If that is true, then the apportionment of representatives according to the census is also "vague". Is that your contention?

Could a politician say that a plan for apportionment of representatives would be to give people more votes if they were rich than if they were poor?



They sure could, if they wanted to.  In fact, The founders did exactly that since you had to own land to vote.

They could also apportion more representation to white people than to black people.  And again, they did exactly that when they apportioned 4/5 of the number of representatives to black people as to white people.


  

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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #27 - Sep 11th, 2018 at 2:29pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 11th, 2018 at 12:34pm:
They sure could, if they wanted to.  In fact, The founders did exactly that since you had to own land to vote.

They could also apportion more representation to white people than to black people.  And again, they did exactly that when they apportioned 4/5 of the number of representatives to black people as to white people.


The number of representatives was apportioned. Who was permitted to vote is a completely different issue.

The denial of rights to black people by some states was an evil aberration, and allowing them to be counted as only 3/5 of a person for the purposes of the apportionment of representatives was a compromise on purely utilitarian grounds, necessary to get the slave states to join the union. It doesn't change the meaning of apportionment or muddy it's meaning.

Black people are now counted as whole persons for the purpose of apportioning representatives.
  
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #28 - Sep 11th, 2018 at 3:43pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 5th, 2018 at 11:24am:
Some of the libertarians on the statist end of the libertarians spectrum keep insisting that government can have the power to tax and can remain limited to the powers specifically granted by the people and not become an intrusive force in their lives.

Sure, hypothetically it could happen.

Can anyone give three or four examples of when it has happened?


Well.

I can give you 194 samples. Okay. None is good enough.

My point is the following.

We are more libertarian now than our ancestors. May be not the one in US. But we're fine now.

Why?

Because there are 194 states competing with one another.

As long as governments "COMPETE" then it won't get big.

In fact, my idea of ideal world, is no longer libertarian. Not everyone wants to be free. Some wants syariah, some wants religious people, some wants to hang out with those of the same race.

Let governments do what they wanna do, but make sure they don't wage war against one another.

Move to government  you like.

Yes. There is a lot of problem with that. But I think that will be solvable.

Sample case:

Western Europe culture. The most advance culture in the world for the last 500 years.

Why are they so advanced?

The chinese emperor can ban all foreign trade just like that.

In western europe, they got tons of mini states. When colombus is rejected by one, it got money from the other.

Notice. Not only this is a relatively libertarian measure compared to China, it's even better. The travel to find a new world produces more money than the research cost. That is not solved by market mechanism. Yet a king can say, okay, I fund it.

And for quite a while, europeans are the richest most powerful nations in the world.

Sample 2:

United States. Ever wonder why the country is called united states?

The federal government prohibits ganja. Yet, California legalize it. People can just move to California.

Now there is a problem with this arrangement. Imagine if a state is better governed. Then people will simply move from another state to that state. That means taking resources away from the advance state.

That is why most western countries have large number of people don't like immigrants.

Surely we can fix this. For example, a country with too many immigrants wanting to come in can charge money for people wanting to come in.

Most countries are doing it well actually. You can enter any country with cheap visa as tourists. You wanna work? That's more involved.

So not too bad. I want something more libertarian, but we're not there yet.

  
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #29 - Sep 11th, 2018 at 4:02pm
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You know if we had an actual imperialist government we could just tax the hell out of our subjects and just keep conquering nation after nation until everyone was sending us tribute.

It'd be horribly immoral, but I think the math would work.

  

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