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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) When has Government Ever Worked? (Read 7960 times)
SkyChief
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #200 - Oct 8th, 2018 at 9:23am
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Jeff wrote on Oct 7th, 2018 at 6:07pm:
Say Chief, did you take time to read the Kentucky Resolutions?

I think Red might have been banned for racism...

I confess I did not.

I tried, but the language and structure of the writing was atrocious - I couldn't even make it through the first paragraph.

Could you summarize the piece?
  

Governments will always devise ways to deprive an honest man of his money or property, and claim that it's legal.
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SkyChief
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #201 - Oct 8th, 2018 at 12:27pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 7th, 2018 at 5:45pm:
I trust my guns Chief. Some are loaded with chambered rounds ready to go...

They are known to be good guns.

None of them has ever gone rogue, like the lizards chicken did Shocked.


We must be super diligent with guns in our house.   We often have the grandchildren visiting - poking around and exploring.

We don't want any "incidents" like I had when I was a boy. 

We were visiting the grandparents and I found Gramp's (loaded) Trooper .38 revolver in the carriage-house.

I managed to squeeze off 3 or 4 rounds into the woods before my parents and grandparents came running out of the house, screaming for me to put the gun down.

I expected to be severely punished, but it was actually my poor Gramps who got the tongue-lashing.

It's really important to keep guns locked up and unloaded with kids around.
  

Governments will always devise ways to deprive an honest man of his money or property, and claim that it's legal.
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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #202 - Oct 8th, 2018 at 2:02pm
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SkyChief wrote on Oct 8th, 2018 at 9:23am:
I confess I did not.

I tried, but the language and structure of the writing was atrocious - I couldn't even make it through the first paragraph.

Could you summarize the piece?
It's mostly a reiteration of arguments made in the Federalist Papers, but the core of the argument presented against the Alien and Sedition Act is that it's an unconstitutional restriction on free speech and that the federal government has no grant of power to pass laws criminalizing anything.

I find the language and style elegant, it just takes time to get adjusted to it, which is something I did many years ago.
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #203 - Oct 8th, 2018 at 2:05pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 7th, 2018 at 4:38pm:
And I keep telling you, apparently not clearly enough, that it is a matter of the one tax expenditure, for schools, benefiting the entire community, and the other, welfare, punishing some for the benefit of others.

The first is a just use of tax revenue, the second is not.

It seems such a clear distinction to me, I have trouble imagining why you can't see it.

I think it's because you are a legalist. I've called you a Pharisee more than once, because you are one.

Unfortunately, Pharisees usually demand that they be given the power to enforce all the rules,
because they can't imagine anything in the world working out well unless Pharisees are carefully monitoring everyone for potential infractions of the rules.

It's an anti-liberty mindset.

Libertarians believe in inherent rights and general equal liberty for everyone, meaning you can do it as long as you respect the rights of others while you do it.

Pharisees like you take the opposite position, that no one is permitted to do anything unless it's first approved by the Pharisees.

I understand you are trying to claim that a brain defect rather than your mental disorder is at fault, but I believe you have even that upside down... It's your sociopathy that makes your disordered mind imagine that it's all the fault of a brain defect.

Have you taken time to read the Kentucky Resolutions?

Can you make sense of them? I doubt that Red will be able to follow what is being said...



Welfare for poor children benefits the whole community.  Just as much as education for poor children does benefits the whole community, if not more.

There is no moral standard you can articulate that makes theft for the education of the poor more moral than theft for the feeding and housing of the poor. 

The community would be much better off with a large percentage of its population uneducated than with a large percentage of its population starving and homeless.

Yet you feel your rights are violated when you are taxed for welfare.


  

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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #204 - Oct 8th, 2018 at 2:08pm
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SkyChief wrote on Oct 8th, 2018 at 12:27pm:
We must be super diligent with guns in our house.   We often have the grandchildren visiting - poking around and exploring.

We don't want any "incidents" like I had when I was a boy. 

We were visiting the grandparents and I found Gramp's (loaded) Trooper .38 revolver in the carriage-house.

I managed to squeeze off 3 or 4 rounds into the woods before my parents and grandparents came running out of the house, screaming for me to put the gun down.

I expected to be severely punished, but it was actually my poor Gramps who got the tongue-lashing.

It's really important to keep guns locked up and unloaded with kids around.
I don't know where my Dad kept his guns until we moved when I was 11, after which time they were on a gun rack in the basement with ammunition on the side.

I already knew not to mess with guns before then because I went rabbit hunting with my Dad when I was about 5 or 6, and when his shotgun went off, I was sure I didn't want to be anywhere near guns!

A neighbor boy when I was around 8 shot his older sister in the forehead with a .22 pistol (playing around, didn't know it was loaded, the usual) and turned her into a living vegetable, and my parents used that as an object lesson...

I also saved up and bought a BB gun when I was 7 or 8 and got gun safety lessons from my Dad at the time. (Lesson 2, never point it at anything you don't want to shoot. Lesson 1, always check to see that any gun you intend to handle is not loaded.)

The most important thing, I think, is to teach your children and know your children.
  

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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #205 - Oct 8th, 2018 at 2:14pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Oct 8th, 2018 at 2:05pm:
Yet you feel your rights are violated when you are taxed for welfare.


I know they are. If the welfare was provided out of local taxes for local people who really needed it to feed their starving children, I'd probably be OK with it.
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #206 - Oct 9th, 2018 at 7:50am
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Jeff wrote on Oct 8th, 2018 at 2:14pm:
I know they are. If the welfare was provided out of local taxes for local people who really needed it to feed their starving children, I'd probably be OK with it.


So you've refined your position?

Now, you say that whether taxes violate rights depends on the level of government doing the taxing?  Federal welfare programs violate your rights, but not local ones?

If "pretty much everyone" in my homeowners association agrees to tax my home to build a neighborhood school, my rights are not violated?  But if the state or federal government taxes my paycheck to provide grants to local education programs, my rights are violated? 

What is the underlying moral or ethical standard that produces that distinction?

BTW, what if my HOA builds a school with the money they had every right to take from me, but it sucks?  Would my rights be violated if the federal government taxed me also to give vouchers so kids in the neighborhood could go to a better school than the one the moral thieves in my HOA run?  What if the HOA taxed me even more to provide such vouchers?

I'll ask again:  How is ANY of that better than just letting people keep  their own money so they can afford to send their kids to private schools?

Are you that keen to transfer wealth in the form of education from working people to non-working people?

  

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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #207 - Oct 9th, 2018 at 9:25am
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Little Big Man wrote on Oct 9th, 2018 at 7:50am:
So you've refined your position?

Now, you say that whether taxes violate rights depends on the level of government doing the taxing?  Federal welfare programs violate your rights, but not local ones?


I haven't changed, I'm still trying to be practical.

I understand that people live together in mostly local communities, and that, without having the federal government constantly interfere, they will structure those communities differently one from another.

Civilization is a balancing act between competing rights. Some communities will place the welfare of children above the right you think you have to not ever be taxed, and choose to tax your property to provide food and shelter to orphans, or at least they would if state and federal governments weren't  monopolizing the child welfare field...

Other communities will decide that your property taxes can only be used to fund police and courts. 

Maybe you can talk some small town into not taxing at all and funding government voluntarily...

That's all part of the idea of how America was planned, so that people would be mostly free to structure their own lives, and that includes structuring the ways their communities worked.

Your freedom to move to a community where you think things are done in ways that suits your preferences would enable the best ways of organizing community services (or not) to prosper and spread. Think of it as a free market in local government... Choose the type you like best. And by the way, the idea of the Constitution was to make sure that virtually all government was local.

There is nothing in the created structure of our governments that prevents communities of people from opting for anarchy or communism, provided they respect the rights of others in matters of common law.

You argue for anarchy, no matter that you claim to want limited government funded by donations, or your alternate, the opportunity to buy/rent police and judges when you think you need one.

Speaking of schools, here's some interesting research-

https://reason.com/archives/2018/10/07/everything-you-know-about-stat?utm_medium...
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #208 - Oct 9th, 2018 at 9:40am
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Jeff wrote on Oct 7th, 2018 at 8:05am:
My understanding is that Article IV Sect. 2 was intended to apply to indentured servants and apprentices bound to service, but not to people owned as slaves. Quite possibly, the slavers were being clever in trying to gain more Constitutional protection for their evil institution.



You are absolutely correct that the founders used ambivalent wording to get the constitution ratified.  With those plum jobs waiting for them, they wanted as little debate as possible.  Each state representative presented the constitution in the way that would best sell it to his state.  The flexibility of the language allowed them to do that easily.

But the fugitive slave clause was not an example of that.  Think about it.  Why would they codify the rights of practitioners of debt bondage and not of practitioners of slavery?  Why would slave states stand for that?

The slavers who wrote and ratified the constitution wanted to make sure that democracy didn't go too far by taking away their "right" to own human beings.  The used tamed down language, but if you are being sincere, you are the only person I know who doesn't know that a "person held to service or labor" meant a slave.  It could also mean an indentured servant who agreed to a term of service in exchange for passage to America or an apprentice who had agreed to a term of service in exchange for training. 

So both southern slavers and northern contract labor employers benefited from taking away the right of people within a state to pass laws regarding debt bondage and slavery.

  

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Little Big Man
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #209 - Oct 9th, 2018 at 9:49am
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Snarky Sack wrote yesterday at 2:05pm:
Quote:
Yet you feel your rights are violated when you are taxed for welfare.


Jeff wrote on Oct 8th, 2018 at 2:14pm:
I know they are. If the welfare was provided out of local taxes for local people who really needed it to feed their starving children, I'd probably be OK with it.

Snarky Sack wrote Today at 7:50am:
Quote:
So you've refined your position?

Now, you say that whether taxes violate rights depends on the level of government doing the taxing?  Federal welfare programs violate your rights, but not local ones?


Jeff wrote on Oct 9th, 2018 at 9:25am:
I haven't changed, I'm still trying to be practical.




Nope.  You said your rights are violated when the federal government taxes you for education and welfare, but not when your local government does.

What is the basis for that difference in rights?

Quote:
Civilization is a balancing act between competing rights. Some communities will place the welfare of children above the right you think you have to not ever be taxed, and choose to tax your property to provide food and shelter to orphans, or at least they would if state and federal governments weren't  monopolizing the child welfare field...


What rights are competing against my right to keep my property when my local community considers taxing me for welfare?  They would say, "Which is more important, Sack's right keep his property or _______'s right to _______?"  Fill in the blanks.

Do you believe that food and shelter for orphans is a right?  It's fine if you do.  Lots of people believe that.  Not libertarians, though . . .




  

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