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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) When has Government Ever Worked? (Read 1669 times)
Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #210 - Oct 9th, 2018 at 1:29pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 9th, 2018 at 9:40am:
You are absolutely correct that the founders used ambivalent wording to get the constitution ratified.  With those plum jobs waiting for them, they wanted as little debate as possible.  Each state representative presented the constitution in the way that would best sell it to his state.  The flexibility of the language allowed them to do that easily.

But the fugitive slave clause was not an example of that.  Think about it.  Why would they codify the rights of practitioners of debt bondage and not of practitioners of slavery?  Why would slave states stand for that?

The slavers who wrote and ratified the constitution wanted to make sure that democracy didn't go too far by taking away their "right" to own human beings.  The used tamed down language, but if you are being sincere, you are the only person I know who doesn't know that a "person held to service or labor" meant a slave.  It could also mean an indentured servant who agreed to a term of service in exchange for passage to America or an apprentice who had agreed to a term of service in exchange for training. 

So both southern slavers and northern contract labor employers benefited from taking away the right of people within a state to pass laws regarding debt bondage and slavery.

You are correct that compromises were made with slavers, but other than believing that slaves were more livestock than human, which only the hardcore slavers believed, all of the founders were interested in constructing a government that would be severely limited and would protect what they agreed were the blessings of liberty, meaning individual liberty.

Nothing in the debates on the Constitution or the debates on it's ratification or the early history of the government shows that your suppositions are even remotely correct.

What "plum jobs" are you talking about? There were very very few of them in the new United States that I know of.

Edit: One ill-considered tax does not indicate an intention to make the Citizens of the U.S. tax slaves of the national government, and the issue of slavery was put to rest by the 13th Amendment.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #211 - Oct 9th, 2018 at 4:12pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 9th, 2018 at 1:29pm:
You are correct that compromises were made with slavers, but other than believing that slaves were more livestock than human, which only the hardcore slavers believed, all of the founders were interested in constructing a government that would be severely limited and would protect what they agreed were the blessings of liberty, meaning individual liberty.

Nothing in the debates on the Constitution or the debates on it's ratification or the early history of the government shows that your suppositions are even remotely correct.

What "plum jobs" are you talking about? There were very very few of them in the new United States that I know of.
Well, Washington and Jefferson go to be president.  That's pretty plum, isn't it?  Others became Senators, members of "the sweetest little club in the world."  I guess you wouldn't consider being a congressman a "plum job," but many signers got there.


Edit: One ill-considered tax does not indicate an intention to make the Citizens of the U.S. tax slaves of the national government, and the issue of slavery was put to rest by the 13th Amendment.

  

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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #212 - Oct 9th, 2018 at 5:09pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 9th, 2018 at 4:12pm:
Well, Washington and Jefferson go to be president.  That's pretty plum, isn't it?
I thought you were talking about political patronage...

I must admit, it is often impossible for me to tell what either you or thermie is talking about...
  
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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #213 - Oct 9th, 2018 at 5:12pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 9th, 2018 at 4:12pm:
I guess you wouldn't consider being a congressman a "plum job,"
At the time the Whiskey Tax was enacted by Congress?

No.

Being in Congress was a sacrifice at the time.

Want to talk more about it? Go ahead, thanks.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #214 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 12:58am
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Jeff wrote on Oct 7th, 2018 at 7:19pm:
Chickens aren't anything at all like guns lizard.


Still, you may risk me, because rights. But I can't risk you, even in a lesser statistical amount, because rights.

That's inequality - what rights work to create.

If neither of us had any rights, you would not be allowed to have a gun and I would not be allowed to have a chicken.

Arguably this is worse, but at least it's equal.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #215 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 8:08am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 12:58am:
Still, you may risk me, because rights. But I can't risk you, even in a lesser statistical amount, because rights.

That's inequality - what rights work to create.

If neither of us had any rights, you would not be allowed to have a gun and I would not be allowed to have a chicken.

Arguably this is worse, but at least it's equal.
With rights come obligations to respect the rights of others.

Imagining that rights are absolute is what confuses you. You have just as much right as anybody else to build a bomb factory, but people who live in a neighborhood next to a school have a right to not be recklessly endangered by having you build the bomb factory in their neighborhood.

I have a right to own a gun in that same neighborhood, and I know you argue that my gun ownership recklessly endangers the neighbors, but it doesn't. Yes, their is a possibility that I will do something stupid and somebody will accidentally get shot, and a possibility that I will decide to go to the school and start shooting children at random, but the dangers of the two things, the bomb factory and my gun are different by orders of magnitude, and reasonable people can see a need to prevent the one and allow the other. (Unless of course I have a history of criminal violence, in which case I will be prevented from having a gun anywhere...)

The inequalities you see are not created by rights, but by differing circumstances in a complex society of other people, who also have rights.

There are no easy solutions where absolutism always works.

If no one had rights and had to ask permission in order to do anything, the permissions would not be granted equally. That's inequality, what a lack of rights guarantees.

  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #216 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 8:24am
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Jeff wrote on Oct 9th, 2018 at 5:12pm:
At the time the Whiskey Tax was enacted by Congress?

No.

Being in Congress was a sacrifice at the time.

Want to talk more about it? Go ahead, thanks.


You are hilarious.

You think that those congressmen gave those tax breaks to large distillers for free?

  

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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #217 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 8:32am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 8:24am:
You think that those congressmen gave those tax breaks to large distillers for free?

That's an interesting proposition, that the "big distillers" bought enough Congressmen (and the President?) to convince them to tax whiskey...

Is there any evidence?

The only things I can find say the large distillers weren't pleased with the 25% tax, which applied to them as well as to small distillers...

What are you talking about, "tax break"?


  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #218 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 8:59am
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Jeff wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 8:32am:
That's an interesting proposition, that the "big distillers" bought enough Congressmen (and the President?) to convince them to tax whiskey...

Is there any evidence?

The only things I can find say the large distillers weren't pleased with the 25% tax, which applied to them as well as to small distillers...

What are you talking about, "tax break"?




You should research more before you pose as an expert.  This is wikipedia so if you haven't read that, are you just making stuff up?

Quote:
Small-scale farmers also protested that Hamilton's excise effectively gave unfair tax breaks to large distillers, most of whom were based in the east. There were two methods of paying the whiskey excise: paying a flat fee or paying by the gallon. Large distillers produced whiskey in volume and could afford the flat fee. The more efficient they became, the less tax per gallon they would pay (as low as 6 cents, according to Hamilton). Western farmers who owned small stills did not usually operate them year-round at full capacity, so they ended up paying a higher tax per gallon (9 cents), which made them less competitive.[18] The regressive nature of the tax was further compounded by an additional factor: whiskey sold for considerably less on the cash-poor Western frontier than in the wealthier and more populous East. This meant that, even if all distillers had been required to pay the same amount of tax per gallon, the small-scale frontier distillers would still have to remit a considerably larger proportion of their product's value than larger Eastern distillers. Small-scale distillers believed that Hamilton deliberately designed the tax to ruin them and promote big business, a view endorsed by some historians.[19] However, historian Thomas Slaughter argued that a "conspiracy of this sort is difficult to document".[20] Whether by design or not, large distillers recognized the advantage that the excise gave them and they supported it.[21]


  

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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #219 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 10:59am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 8:59am:
You should research more before you pose as an expert.  This is wikipedia so if you haven't read that, are you just making stuff up?


I see, and Hamilton convinced Congress to pass this tax and the President to sign it because they wanted to reward big distillers and punish people on the frontier.

Is there evidence that the big distillers supported the tax?

Also from what you quoted in wiki-

" However, historian Thomas Slaughter argued that a "conspiracy of this sort is difficult to document".[20]"

I think it was an ill considered tax, and that Congress and the President were focused on paying the debts of the new government, and simply failed to consider the effects the tax would have.

Maybe if I have time, I'll try to see if there is a record of debates in Congress over the tax before it was passed. That could be interesting...

You're contention is that the government wanted to get cronyism started almost immediately? That Hamilton was lying about most everything he said in the Federalist Papers?

How did Hamilton supposedly benefit by having the big Eastern distillers gain an advantage? Was it just a philosophical thing with Hamilton, that he thought big businesses were better? Or maybe he just wanted farmers on the frontier to fail?
  
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