Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › When has Government Ever Worked?
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 22 23 [24] 25 26 ... 34 Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) When has Government Ever Worked? (Read 1677 times)
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 7695
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #230 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 10:44pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 8:08am:
With rights come obligations to respect the rights of others.

Imagining that rights are absolute is what confuses you. You have just as much right as anybody else to build a bomb factory, but people who live in a neighborhood next to a school have a right to not be recklessly endangered by having you build the bomb factory in their neighborhood.

I have a right to own a gun in that same neighborhood, and I know you argue that my gun ownership recklessly endangers the neighbors, but it doesn't. Yes, their is a possibility that I will do something stupid and somebody will accidentally get shot, and a possibility that I will decide to go to the school and start shooting children at random, but the dangers of the two things, the bomb factory and my gun are different by orders of magnitude, and reasonable people can see a need to prevent the one and allow the other. (Unless of course I have a history of criminal violence, in which case I will be prevented from having a gun anywhere...)

The inequalities you see are not created by rights, but by differing circumstances in a complex society of other people, who also have rights.

There are no easy solutions where absolutism always works.


Except gun rights. Those are absolute because it's a right you want.

Like everyone who advocates rights, you're a pure selfish bully. You want your way, and nobody else should get a damn thing.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 34556
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #231 - Oct 11th, 2018 at 6:43am
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 10:44pm:
Except gun rights. Those are absolute because it's a right you want.

The right to be armed is not absolute. The government can restrict that right for individuals who have been convicted of violent crimes. I can restrict your right to be armed on my property. That doesn't mean I can remove the right, just that I can deny you the free exercise of the right while you are on my property.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 34556
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #232 - Oct 11th, 2018 at 7:35am
Print Post  
Some more thoughts about why our current extraconstitutional system of government isn't working-

https://reason.com/archives/2018/10/10/why-the-executive-branch-shouldnt-legisl?...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Snarky Sack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 3888
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #233 - Oct 11th, 2018 at 10:46am
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 6:45pm:
Does that sort of brainwashing work?

No.


What is the basis for your statement that offering defiant children a binary choice between two non-preferred behaviors doesn’t work better than telling them to do something with no other option except defiance?

Because that goes against a principle that is very well established in research and practice.  Could you explain your disagreement?

Quote:
Have you found it possible to look at the issue of the excise tax on whiskey broadly?

Who do you think was right?


The defiars of the illegal tax were right.  Those who used torture, warrant less searches and went to war against a whole section of the country were not right. 

How could you say otherwise?
« Last Edit: Oct 11th, 2018 at 11:50am by Snarky Sack »  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Snarky Sack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 3888
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #234 - Oct 11th, 2018 at 11:14am
Print Post  
Snarky Sack wrote yesterday at 12:45pm:
Quote:
But I don’t see why you don’t just say, “any tax is fine as long as there’s a reason for it that I, Jeff, agree with.”  That at least would be honest.


Jeff wrote yesterday at 2:02pm:
Quote:
I'll tell you again, I think taxes (provided they are levied legally) that are used for legal purposes are moral.


Snarky Sack wrote yesterday at 3:30pm:
Quote:
Are you going to stick with that position?


Jeff wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 5:23pm:
In broad view of the facts, yes.

Let's look at [the Whiskey Tax] broadly.




I'm not asking just about the whiskey tax. Is your position that taxes (provided they are levied legally) that are used for legal purposes are moral and are you going to stick with that position?  Or are you going to argue several other positions for each counter-example I give and pretend that's what you meant the whole time?


  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 34556
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #235 - Oct 11th, 2018 at 12:28pm
Print Post  
Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 11th, 2018 at 10:46am:
What is the basis for your statement that offering defiant children a binary choice between two non-preferred behaviors doesn’t work better than telling them to do something with no other option except defiance?


Offering a binary choice when there are more choices available is a lie, and telling them to do something when they always have the option of defiance is a binary choice- they can follow your command, or defy you.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 34556
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #236 - Oct 11th, 2018 at 12:33pm
Print Post  
Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 11th, 2018 at 10:46am:
The defiars of the illegal tax were right.  Those who used torture, warrant less searches and went to war against a whole section of the country were not right. 

How could you say otherwise?
Because the government needed tax revenue, not only to pay its debts and operate, but to build them the roads and give them the protection of the army they were demanding.

The government was right to tax in order to provide the things it was supposed to provide.




  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Snarky Sack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 3888
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #237 - Oct 11th, 2018 at 12:33pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Oct 11th, 2018 at 12:28pm:
Offering a binary choice when there are more choices available is a lie, and telling them to do something when they always have the option of defiance is a binary choice- they can follow your command, or defy you.


But the choice you offered is binary.

You are right, though about the lie part.  Just as the choice of per gallon or per capacity was a lie.  Defiance was indeed a third option and the very successful one at that.
  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Snarky Sack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 3888
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #238 - Oct 11th, 2018 at 12:35pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Oct 11th, 2018 at 12:33pm:
Because the government needed tax revenue, not only to pay its debts and operate, but to build them the roads and give them the protection of the army they were demanding.


Ok, seriously?

You actually expect me to believe they were demanding protection from an Army that they themselves easily defeated while at the same time producing the best small-batch whiskey in the world?

Do you never tire of looking foolish?



Quote:
The government was right to tax in order to provide the things it was supposed to provide.


Wow.

Just wow.





[/quote]
  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Snarky Sack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 3888
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #239 - Oct 11th, 2018 at 12:38pm
Print Post  
[quote author=3522253924253233570 link=1536161098/237#237 date=1539275637]

But the choice you offered is binary.

You are right, though about the lie part.  Just as the choice of per gallon or per capacity was a lie.  Defiance was indeed a third option and the very successful one at that.

The lie works on many children.  That's how your idea of good government treats adults who are productive:  like children who don't know that teacher knows best.


  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 22 23 [24] 25 26 ... 34
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › When has Government Ever Worked?
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy