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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) When has Government Ever Worked? (Read 3521 times)
Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #240 - Oct 11th, 2018 at 12:39pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 11th, 2018 at 11:14am:
I'm not asking just about the whiskey tax. Is your position that taxes (provided they are levied legally) that are used for legal purposes are moral and are you going to stick with that position?
I approve of legal taxes for legal purposes. In my mind they are justifiable as well as legal, so, despite how slippery a word "moral" is, I'll stick with it... but you have to understand that moral doesn't necessarily mean the same thing to different people, and that even to the same person, what is moral in one circumstance might be judged immoral in another.

Don't blame me for dragging morality into a secular discussion of the law, thanks.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #241 - Oct 11th, 2018 at 12:56pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 11th, 2018 at 12:35pm:
Jeff wrote on Oct 11th, 2018 at 12:33pm:
The government was right to tax in order to provide the things it was supposed to provide.



Wow.

Just wow.

I was a little alarmed when I read this, too.

It really smacks of Statism.

Here are the things that government should provide;

Justice with equality
promote domestic Tranquility
provide for the common defense
secure the Blessings of Liberty

Public Roads and "free" education never made the list, Jeff.    Embarrassed
  
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The Opposition
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #242 - Oct 12th, 2018 at 12:36am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 11th, 2018 at 12:38pm:
The lie works on many children.  That's how your idea of good government treats adults who are productive:  like children who don't know that teacher knows best.


I consider myself the child who knows that the teacher does not know best but is willing to obey anyway, because when everyone follows the same rules, equality is the result.

Jeff wrote on Oct 11th, 2018 at 12:39pm:
I approve of legal taxes for legal purposes. In my mind they are justifiable as well as legal, so, despite how slippery a word "moral" is, I'll stick with it... but you have to understand that moral doesn't necessarily mean the same thing to different people, and that even to the same person, what is moral in one circumstance might be judged immoral in another.

Don't blame me for dragging morality into a secular discussion of the law, thanks.


Bloop. There goes that slippery eel of an eelectron again.

People only mean whether a law is right or wrong, not whether or not Vishnu approves of it.

You know laws themselves can potentially be wrong, independent of religious dogma, don't you?

Is it really that hard to just stay still for a moment and have an actual, honest discussion?

You must either believe that people are so much smarter than you that they'll bamboozle you out of your fundamentally correct beliefs, or that your beliefs are actually indefensible crap.

I, for one, want to discover truth, not bamboozle anyone. I want an honest discussion and I've shown many times that I'm emotionally mature enough to have one, rather than insist upon my way, even if I have to use dirty tactics.

That just leaves you thinking your positions are hot, wet, indefensible garbage. But that's okay - that's actually what everyone thinks about his own positions. Everyone political is choosing the position that best benefits them at the expense of others.

It shouldn't surprise you that welfare queens want more welfare and lobster-gobblers want the NAP (read: an entitlement to hands off of their vast amounts of property - the assumption that no one aggresses).

I'm okay with that. I'm okay with the rules tipping the board in favour of others and adopting a position I know benefits me less.

I can't do that if it's not consistent, though. I need clear rules for which actions are okay, and which ones are not.

So stop evading. I'm not trying to bamboozle you.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Snarky Sack
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #243 - Oct 12th, 2018 at 9:29am
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Jeff wrote on Oct 11th, 2018 at 12:39pm:
I approve of legal taxes for legal purposes. In my mind they are justifiable as well as legal, so, despite how slippery a word "moral" is, I'll stick with it...


We'll see how long.

The community of California spent 105 Billion Dollars on welfare in 2015, presumably much more after that, but those were the first figures I found.

Since the community of California, through their elected representatives, voted in this legal expenditure and since the method of collecting the tax is perfectly legal under the laws of that community, you say that taxing Californians a little more than $2,600 each to pay for that is perfectly moral?

They're really taxing themselves, isn't that right?

Just talking about the tax itself, not the morality of welfare, which is another topic.

Quote:
but you have to understand that moral doesn't necessarily mean the same thing to different people, and that even to the same person, what is moral in one circumstance might be judged immoral in another.

Don't blame me for dragging morality into a secular discussion of the law, thanks.


I won't since I brought it up in the first place. 
  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #244 - Oct 13th, 2018 at 2:05pm
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SkyChief wrote on Oct 11th, 2018 at 12:56pm:
I was a little alarmed when I read this, too.

It really smacks of Statism.

Here are the things that government should provide;

Justice with equality
promote domestic Tranquility
provide for the common defense
secure the Blessings of Liberty

Public Roads and "free" education never made the list, Jeff.    Embarrassed

The frontier farmers wanted post roads and army protection, both of which were both authorized and promised.

Nothing is free. Most local communities chose to tax real property in order to establish schools that would be open to every child.
  
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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #245 - Oct 13th, 2018 at 2:08pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 12th, 2018 at 9:29am:
We'll see how long.

The community of California spent 105 Billion Dollars on welfare in 2015, presumably much more after that, but those were the first figures I found.

Since the community of California, through their elected representatives, voted in this legal expenditure and since the method of collecting the tax is perfectly legal under the laws of that community, you say that taxing Californians a little more than $2,600 each to pay for that is perfectly moral?


Everything that happens in Kalifornia is immoral.
  
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Josh
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #246 - Oct 13th, 2018 at 4:52pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 5th, 2018 at 11:24am:
Some of the libertarians on the statist end of the libertarians spectrum keep insisting that government can have the power to tax and can remain limited to the powers specifically granted by the people and not become an intrusive force in their lives.

Sure, hypothetically it could happen.

Can anyone give three or four examples of when it has happened?

Nope.
  

I like big butts and I cannot lie.
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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #247 - Oct 13th, 2018 at 5:28pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 11th, 2018 at 12:33pm:
Just as the choice of per gallon or per capacity was a lie.
It was not. It was a law under the Internal Revenue code. That's what the IRC in the references to specific laws I gave you means. Federal Law. And it gave distillers, both large and small, a binary choice.
  
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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #248 - Oct 15th, 2018 at 8:35am
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Here's an example of government not working, not fulfilling one of it's primary duties-

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/oct/14/ted-wheeler-portland-mayor-stan...
  
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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #249 - Oct 15th, 2018 at 8:42am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 5th, 2018 at 11:24am:
Some of the libertarians on the statist end of the libertarians spectrum keep insisting that government can have the power to tax and can remain limited to the powers specifically granted by the people and not become an intrusive force in their lives.

Sure, hypothetically it could happen.

Can anyone give three or four examples of when it has happened?
One is enough to prove it can be done, and the U.S. before the Progressive Era is that example.

No, it wasn't perfectly done.
  
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