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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) When has Government Ever Worked? (Read 7714 times)
The Opposition
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #250 - Oct 15th, 2018 at 10:48am
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Jeff wrote on Oct 15th, 2018 at 8:42am:
One is enough to prove it can be done, and the U.S. before the Progressive Era is that example.


I don't know about Burnsy, but my contention has always been that it can't be done sustainably, and inevitably, inexorably, will decay into a terrible system.

The Empire of Rome is generally considered one of the longest-lived societies, and it obviously wasn't the kind of system libertarians want.

My contention is that liberty is super-fragile, represents at best, a very unstable equilibrium, and is easily destroyed by the very thing it enshrines: Too much freedom. The United States is a great example, because the freedom to lobby was a direct cause of the power creep and decay into cronyism.

The government and its representatives don't just wake up one day and decide to become tyrants. Every freedom lost, they made money off. Every decision that hurt the people, and benefited the few, they were paid for.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #251 - Oct 15th, 2018 at 5:05pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 15th, 2018 at 10:48am:
I don't know about Burnsy, but my contention has always been that it can't be done sustainably, and inevitably, inexorably, will decay into a terrible system.

That sort of thing is clear in history, it happened fairly often, and we have now learned from the mistakes that have been made in all sorts of governments, so we can do much better.

And the fundamental idea of America is the best idea we have to work with. Making people Sovereigns and government their servant was a brilliant world changing idea.

We should return to it and do things even better than ever before.
  

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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #252 - Oct 15th, 2018 at 5:08pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 15th, 2018 at 10:48am:
My contention is that liberty is super-fragile, represents at best, a very unstable equilibrium, and is easily destroyed by the very thing it enshrines: Too much freedom.
My contention is that your baseless contention is horseshit.
  

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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #253 - Oct 16th, 2018 at 8:29am
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More about how government control of money and finance has not worked well at all-

http://charleshughsmith.blogspot.com/2018/10/heres-why-next-recession-will-spira...
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #254 - Oct 16th, 2018 at 8:47am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 15th, 2018 at 10:48am:
I don't know about Burnsy, but my contention has always been that it can't be done sustainably, and inevitably, inexorably, will decay into a terrible system.

The Empire of Rome is generally considered one of the longest-lived societies, and it obviously wasn't the kind of system libertarians want.

My contention is that liberty is super-fragile, represents at best, a very unstable equilibrium, and is easily destroyed by the very thing it enshrines: Too much freedom. The United States is a great example, because the freedom to lobby was a direct cause of the power creep and decay into cronyism.

The government and its representatives don't just wake up one day and decide to become tyrants. Every freedom lost, they made money off. Every decision that hurt the people, and benefited the few, they were paid for.


Exactly.  As Jeff never tires of ignoring, the U.S. began levying and enforcing illegal taxes during the first administration of the first president under the Slaveholder's Manifesto U.S. Constitution that he puts so much faith in.

People like Jeff who "like freedom, but . . . " are way bigger obstacles to libertarians than people who openly support Jeff's welfare state.


« Last Edit: Oct 16th, 2018 at 10:41am by Little Big Man »  

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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #255 - Oct 16th, 2018 at 10:29am
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Little Big Man wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 at 8:47am:
Exactly.  As Jeff never tires of ignoring, the U.S. began levying and enforcing illegal taxes during the first administration of the first president...
Actually, I'm the one who proposed (at least on this forum) that the Excise on Whiskey was not Constitutional because it wasn't uniform, and that opinion of mine, even though you accept it, is not, I believe, widely accepted.

Most likely the majority of people looking at the issue will say the tax was legal under the Constitution and that my reading of the Rule of Uniformity is wrong.
  

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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #256 - Oct 16th, 2018 at 10:33am
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Little Big Man wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 at 8:47am:
People like Jeff who "like freedom, but . . . " are way bigger obstacles to libertarians than people who openly support Jeff's welfare state.


It's not my welfare state, and I consistently oppose it.

That fact that I like individual liberty and believe limited government is the only feasible way to achieve it does not make me a "statist" as you so often claim.

Have you had any luck yet with convincing a small town full of people to stop collecting taxes and fund their town government with donations?

Have you figured out a way to make theft and murder illegal without granting police powers to governments?
  

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The Opposition
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #257 - Oct 16th, 2018 at 10:37am
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Jeff wrote on Oct 15th, 2018 at 5:05pm:
That sort of thing is clear in history, it happened fairly often, and we have now learned from the mistakes that have been made in all sorts of governments, so we can do much better.

And the fundamental idea of America is the best idea we have to work with. Making people Sovereigns and government their servant was a brilliant world changing idea.

We should return to it and do things even better than ever before.


"It will work, if we only do it right this time."

This is the same exact argument you dismiss out of hand if a communist uses it.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #258 - Oct 16th, 2018 at 10:37am
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Little Big Man wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 at 8:47am:
...the Slaveholders Manifesto U.S. Constitution...
Calling the U.S. Constitution, even in its original form, a "Slaveholder's Manifesto" betrays an appalling ignorance on your part and/or an intention to discredit one of the best Liberty Documents the world has ever known.
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #259 - Oct 16th, 2018 at 10:40am
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Jeff wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 at 10:33am:
It's not my welfare state, and I consistently oppose it.

That fact that I like individual liberty and believe limited government is the only feasible way to achieve it does not make me a "statist" as you so often claim.


The minute you start using government to "rob the rich and give to the poor," whether it is cash, food, housing, education, midnight basketball or National Public Radio, that is the welfare state.  Just because you happen to think public education is wonderful and is a "great equalizer" doesn't make it any less so.  No more than I think a UBI would be the best way to spend stolen money if I ever agreed it should be stolen makes UBI not welfare.

Education is wealth.  You advocate redistributing that education from the working people to the non-working.

Quote:
Have you had any luck yet with convincing a small town full of people to stop collecting taxes and fund their town government with donations?
You haven't give me the name yet. 

Quote:
Have you figured out a way to make theft and murder illegal without granting police powers to governments?


I only want government to realize that the police powers to stop theft and murder stem from each individual's right to self-defense, not some "right to tax" on the part of any collective.


  

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